The Transaxle Thread

[Growler58]

@Sean@Weddle
I have a 2 seat rear engine 2021 SU with a 383 twin turbo just shy of 800 at the wheels with S4S

saturday going up olds, 3rd gear, as I came off the throttle I heard a bang, followed by what sounds like metal on metal rubbing. 
gears are all there and function. 

noise gets louder under more load/throttle. Off throttle and noise goes away. You can feel the shifter handle kind of bumping as it makes the rubbing noise. 
Joe fab says he thinks it’s dif gear tooth broke? 
Dropping it off to Ed later this week.

Ideas of what failed and costs associated to fix.

or should I fix and sale current trans and swap to s4d. I know it’s on the edge of power for an s4 but car is decently light. 
 

see video for noise 

any help / advise appreciated. So I can mentally prepare before trans removed, lol

IMG_8218.mov 89.89 MB · 6 downloads  

I recently installed a new S45 and have the same noise after installation. So I will be following closely! 

 

[1newbie]

Not to hijack; but what is the strength difference between a s4d and a s4s with the new 'deeper contact' R&P?

 

[Jersey_Jeff73]

I wouldn't say that, they are still a decent trans to have. The unfortunate part comes when a housing cracks/breaks or a shifting components wears out/breaks. That could be a year, it could be 10 years. 

I would not hesitate to buy a car with a PBS in it, but I would know that it will need a Weddle S4/S5 replacement somewhere down the line once the PBS is done. New mounts will have to be welded into the chassis for the Weddle trans. 

If the gears, R&P, diff are still useable in a blown up PBS trans, those parts could be transferred into Weddle cases for considerably less cost than buying a complete new trans. 

would it be worth it if you have a good pbs to have someone change the cases and shift mechanism to weddel if they are having a problem with the shifting before the gear faces get damaged   if so approximate cost and is the wedded any longer overall with the ls bell

 

[Sean@Weddle]

@Sean@Weddle
I have a 2 seat rear engine 2021 SU with a 383 twin turbo just shy of 800 at the wheels with S4S

saturday going up olds, 3rd gear, as I came off the throttle I heard a bang, followed by what sounds like metal on metal rubbing. 
gears are all there and function. 

noise gets louder under more load/throttle. Off throttle and noise goes away. You can feel the shifter handle kind of bumping as it makes the rubbing noise. 
Joe fab says he thinks it’s dif gear tooth broke? 
Dropping it off to Ed later this week.

Ideas of what failed and costs associated to fix.

or should I fix and sale current trans and swap to s4d. I know it’s on the edge of power for an s4 but car is decently light. 
 

see video for noise 

any help / advise appreciated. So I can mentally prepare before trans removed, lol


IMG_8218.mov 89.89 MB · 14 downloads

Shifter handle moving/bumping makes me think there is some sort of issue with shifting mechanism. There is no reason for that to get kicked around unless a shift fork is bent/broken, or dogs or worn off a gear.

Noise in the video sounds like a possible issue on the ring gear (R&P) as it makes a ticking noise at sounds like a larger revolution than a 1st-4th gear would make. Sounds like it's making the noise with tire rotation, which is a ring gear rotation. 

Best to hold off on S4D vs. S4 question until you know what 's wrong in trans now. Although you are well above what the S4 trans can reliably handle, but will take a serious amount of work to stick an S4D in the mid-engine chassis (moves CV location back on trans, or move engine forward to compensate).

 

[Sean@Weddle]

Not to hijack; but what is the strength difference between a s4d and a s4s with the new 'deeper contact' R&P?

There is no "deep cut" R&P for the S4D, only for the S4/S5 and MD trans, and now coming to HV trans. 

The "Deep cut" you refer to is a new way to make these using a more common and less expensive Gleason tooth form, rather than the increasingly difficult Klinglenberg Palloid design we have used for years. These new "Ground" R&P sets as we call them have been working quite well for about a year and half now. Been running them in race cars to see how they hold up, and doing as good as the common Klinglenberg sets we have previously used. 

 

[Sean@Weddle]

would it be worth it if you have a good pbs to have someone change the cases and shift mechanism to weddel if they are having a problem with the shifting before the gear faces get damaged   if so approximate cost and is the wedded any longer overall with the ls bell

If you are willing to shell out the money and fabrication to fit into your chassis, yes. It will generally save you money in the long run rather than waiting for more parts to break in the current PBS, forcing you to buy replacements later anyways. 

 

[J Alper]

Are the Spider Gears for the Diff the Same Size for a S4D and the S4?  I was told they are the same size,  

Is the s4d a Klingenberg design or a Gleason. 

 

[Sean@Weddle]

Are the Spider Gears for the Diff the Same Size for a S4D and the S4?  I was told they are the same size,  

Is the s4d a Klingenberg design or a Gleason. 

Same diff gears for S4 and S4D.

S4D R&P is still a Klinglenberg. 

 

[wesinls]

For the original S5's - shifting without a clutch - I assume proper technique is to simply let off the gas, shift? If using proper technique (please tell me if what I put is not the proper way) - is it at that point just personal preference on ow to shift (clutch vs no clutch)? Or are you being nicer on your trans if you use a clutch every time?

 

[Sandkist]

For the original S5's - shifting without a clutch - I assume proper technique is to simply let off the gas, shift? If using proper technique (please tell me if what I put is not the proper way) - is it at that point just personal preference on ow to shift (clutch vs no clutch)? Or are you being nicer on your trans if you use a clutch every time?

Depends on the individuals motor skills If not coordinated, using the clutch to up and down shift will save $$$. To upshift without the clutch  lift on the throttle and to downshift blip the throttle. Firm shifts are a must. If I use the clutch to down shift I still blip the throttle. It will be interesting to hear @Sean@Weddlecomments regarding wear and tear on a properly shifted box, clutch vs no clutch. I would think pushing in the clutch unloads the gears same as doing so with the throttle. Instructions on how to shift a sequential transaxle are on Weddle’s website

 

[Deviantduner]

Shifter handle moving/bumping makes me think there is some sort of issue with shifting mechanism. There is no reason for that to get kicked around unless a shift fork is bent/broken, or dogs or worn off a gear.

Noise in the video sounds like a possible issue on the ring gear (R&P) as it makes a ticking noise at sounds like a larger revolution than a 1st-4th gear would make. Sounds like it's making the noise with tire rotation, which is a ring gear rotation. 

Best to hold off on S4D vs. S4 question until you know what 's wrong in trans now. Although you are well above what the S4 trans can reliably handle, but will take a serious amount of work to stick an S4D in the mid-engine chassis (moves CV location back on trans, or move engine forward to compensate).

So problem found. Bearing failed, took out 4th gear, r+p, forks, and couple other items 

No known reason for failure ? Minimal trips on it since car built, 2021 SU

 

[lincster]

I went thru a few of those on my Fortin. But the Fortin has a much smaller piñon head bearing than the S4. 
I think u have too much power for that trans. 

 

[Sean@Weddle]

So problem found. Bearing failed, took out 4th gear, r+p, forks, and couple other items 

No known reason for failure ? Minimal trips on it since car built, 2021 SU
View attachment 89000

A few factors that can cause a bearing to fail. Need to talk to the trans builder to get an idea of what was done in the last service. 

For what it's worth, I would assume that this bearing would have been making some level of whining noise before it got this point, mostly under deceleration. 

 

[Sean@Weddle]

Depends on the individuals motor skills If not coordinated, using the clutch to up and down shift will save $$$. To upshift without the clutch  lift on the throttle and to downshift blip the throttle. Firm shifts are a must. If I use the clutch to down shift I still blip the throttle. It will be interesting to hear @Sean@Weddlecomments regarding wear and tear on a properly shifted box, clutch vs no clutch. I would think pushing in the clutch unloads the gears same as doing so with the throttle. Instructions on how to shift a sequential transaxle are on Weddle’s website

There is a lot to answer, but I'll try to make it simple.

You have to unload the dogs to allow the shifter to throw in either direction.

For upshifting, the dogs are loaded by the torque of the engine. Lifting off the throttle unloads the dogs allowing the mechanism to pull out of the gear it's in and shift into the next gear. 

For downshifting, the dogs are loaded by the weight of the car pushing against the gears, which is essentially loading against the back of the engine (engine braking). Blipping the throttle throws the dogs forward and unloads them enough to release and shift into the next gear down. 

The old Gen 1/Gen 2 ratchet mechanism in the Mendeola and PBS sequentials were not quite as fast to rotate, things shifted slower inside the trans. This caused some wear and tear on the dogs when shifting in both directions. It was thought that using the clutch would unload the gearbox enough to reduce the wear and tear on the dogs, and to a point it did.

The new Gen 3 ratchet rotates faster, allowing the dogs to release and engage the next gear faster. This is much easier to shift without the clutch, and in my personal/professional opinion, is better to shift without the use of depressing the clutch pedal (disclaimer: don't go thinking you can just go shift without the clutch and expect no damage, this still heavily rely on the hand/foot coordination of the driver). I believe that the time it takes to push the clutch pedal down and throw the shifter, the dogs have already reverse load direction and are now loaded again, making it harder to push/pull the shifter. 

A quick lift/blip of the throttle while simultaneously shifting is a much faster actuation and when performed properly, is easier on the gearbox than using the clutch. 

If you simply preload the shifter in whichever direction you plan on shifting, then either lift off or blip the throttle depending on upshift or downshift, while simultaneously throwing the shifter, the preloaded linkage will then release and allow the shifter to throw once the dogs have unloaded. 

 

[lincster]

There is a lot to answer, but I'll try to make it simple.

You have to unload the dogs to allow the shifter to throw in either direction.

For upshifting, the dogs are loaded by the torque of the engine. Lifting off the throttle unloads the dogs allowing the mechanism to pull out of the gear it's in and shift into the next gear. 

For downshifting, the dogs are loaded by the weight of the car pushing against the gears, which is essentially loading against the back of the engine (engine braking). Blipping the throttle throws the dogs forward and unloads them enough to release and shift into the next gear down. 

The old Gen 1/Gen 2 ratchet mechanism in the Mendeola and PBS sequentials were not quite as fast to rotate, things shifted slower inside the trans. This caused some wear and tear on the dogs when shifting in both directions. It was thought that using the clutch would unload the gearbox enough to reduce the wear and tear on the dogs, and to a point it did.

The new Gen 3 ratchet rotates faster, allowing the dogs to release and engage the next gear faster. This is much easier to shift without the clutch, and in my personal/professional opinion, is better to shift without the use of depressing the clutch pedal (disclaimer: don't go thinking you can just go shift without the clutch and expect no damage, this still heavily rely on the hand/foot coordination of the driver). I believe that the time it takes to push the clutch pedal down and throw the shifter, the dogs have already reverse load direction and are now loaded again, making it harder to push/pull the shifter. 

A quick lift/blip of the throttle while simultaneously shifting is a much faster actuation and when performed properly, is easier on the gearbox than using the clutch. 

If you simply preload the shifter in whichever direction you plan on shifting, then either lift off or blip the throttle depending on upshift or downshift, while simultaneously throwing the shifter, the preloaded linkage will then release and allow the shifter to throw once the dogs have unloaded. 

Just an observation Sean.

Buddy had a S4 with a Gen 2 shift mechanism, went to a S5 with the Gen 3.

Exact same shifter.

He said the Gen 2 shifted "better".

From our trans builder, I think he explained it as the Gen 2 had an extra spring on the return mechanism than the Gen 3 does.  Can you confirm/deny?

 

[J Alper]

I know I have seen it somewhere before but i cant seen to find it now. Im getting ready to install a PBS in place of a 2D in a buddies car and couldn't remember which way the shifter cables are routed or i guess which way is an up shift and down shift on the shifter arm  

AT the end of the day it is just a lever, one way shift up and the other way shift down,

First step pick a shifter you like, we sell ball bearing shifters, you weld or bolt a tab on the shift lever to make it shift anyway you want, 

i have ran the shift cable on a rear engine car around the bell housing so the shift cable bracket will bolt to the case,---- this way makes the shift cable have a long loop and does not shift good,  

The best way is to run the cables direct and straight to the shift point,  this will make the trans last the longest do to proper shifter and more firm shifting,  

You can send us the shift lever on the trans and we can weld a single tab or a full circle tab with multiple holes to shift, 

At the end of the day it is just a lever on the trans to shift the transmission,   

 

[HydroPower]

AT the end of the day it is just a lever, one way shift up and the other way shift down,

First step pick a shifter you like, we sell ball bearing shifters, you weld or bolt a tab on the shift lever to make it shift anyway you want, 

i have ran the shift cable on a rear engine car around the bell housing so the shift cable bracket will bolt to the case,---- this way makes the shift cable have a long loop and does not shift good,  

The best way is to run the cables direct and straight to the shift point,  this will make the trans last the longest do to proper shifter and more firm shifting,  

You can send us the shift lever on the trans and we can weld a single tab or a full circle tab with multiple holes to shift, 

At the end of the day it is just a lever on the trans to shift the transmission,   

Ya we ended up going with an extreme shifter, wish I knew you were still making yours cuz I probably would have gone that route like i did when I upgraded my car a couple years ago. 

I ended up running the shift cable straight to the nosecone to eliminate the long loop around the bell housing and it turned our really good. Still had to run a long loop for the reverse cable since the fuel tank was in the way for a straight cable. Car turned out great and my buddy was ecstatic with how much nicer it is to drive a sequential vs the h pattern 2d  

 

[Greg Rakes]

Speaking of shifters it looks like there is the SU shifter, extreme, SCU, Hargett and the JC Whips and Shyt. What’s the good, bad and ugly on these or is it just personal preference of style.   Did I miss any other sequential shifters out there?

 

[Sean@Weddle]

Just an observation Sean.

Buddy had a S4 with a Gen 2 shift mechanism, went to a S5 with the Gen 3.

Exact same shifter.

He said the Gen 2 shifted "better".

From our trans builder, I think he explained it as the Gen 2 had an extra spring on the return mechanism than the Gen 3 does.  Can you confirm/deny?

The Gen 1 ratchet used 2 springs, one on the inside of the trans, and one on the external shift lever (PBS also does this). The problem here is if the springs are not tuned properly, they "fight" each other to return the mechanism to center after a shift operation, and the pawls do not reset to push the drum over and shift for the next shift operation. This is the common "ghost shift" where you shift, but nothing happens in the trans.

The Gen 2 mechanism upgrade was started by Mendeola and used a stiffer single inner spring, and got rid of the external spring on the shift arm. This worked a little better, but the arms on the springs were inconsistent and would still cause the Ghost Shift issue. When Weddle took over the program, we were very careful about making sure all ratchet mechanisms were built with good quality springs that returned properly.

The Gen 3 mechanism is a completely different mechanical system that shifts faster internally, and uses a single external spring on the shift arm. This allows us to make better internal adjustments to ensure proper return of the mechanism after each shift.

Your buddy saying the Gen 2 shifted better than his new Gen 3 is odd. That is quite literally the first person to say the opposite. Every single Gen 3 upgrade has been met with good response. Might be worth him calling me for a conversation to see if there is something else wrong in the system so we can make it work properly. 

 

[Desert Boring]

Anyone know what the rough cost is to upgrade a s4 to the upgraded gen 3 shift system? If it is even possible I suppose.