The Transaxle Thread

Sandkist said:
Spider gears in differential?
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Maybe.  The 2 times I buried the tires, it had to be loaded up, regardless of forward or in reverse.  The one time I was able to get it free'd up i wasn't buried and on a slight hill so it rolled a bit.

 
J Alper said:
Thanks Sean looking back at your posts, Mine does not have the spring on the outside, 

Question, mine has the skinny seals on the shift shafts and reverse shafts, do the new ones have the thicker seals,  like the gen 1,  

Mine has never leaked with the gen 1 and the gen 2 has leaked from day one,  
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The skinny 1/8" seals are only on the early Gen 1 housings, which eventually got updated to the wider 1/4" seals sometime before we took over the program.

There was a batch of housings that were slightly oversized on the bore that holds the shift shafts some years back. This allows the shift shaft to wobble a little and leak oil past the seals. Yes, it's annoying, but don't cause an issue other than an annoying mess.

 
Sean@Weddle said:
The skinny 1/8" seals are only on the early Gen 1 housings, which eventually got updated to the wider 1/4" seals sometime before we took over the program.

There was a batch of housings that were slightly oversized on the bore that holds the shift shafts some years back. This allows the shift shaft to wobble a little and leak oil past the seals. Yes, it's annoying, but don't cause an issue other than an annoying mess.
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Thank you, when i update the trans,  I think i will purchase a full new housing,  I have the barrel for the aluminum divorced shaft, does the barrel stay the same if i purchase a new shift housing, 

and will i need a new cover, you converted mine, but still has the older large shift sensor,  

 
Grease Monkey said:
First, I want to thank  @Sean@Weddle for taking his time to help everyone here and for sharing his knowledge for all of us. Really appreciate you.   DOTM nomination coming.

I am having a problem and we think its transaxle related.  S4 built by Rancho in 2022.  I have 6 trips on the car and have had 3 situations that are frustrating to diagnose. 

My car when I come to a stop will lock to the ground.  When I start to take off its like all the brakes are engaged and with all the power I can apply, it will barely turn the rear wheels and just bury the car. 

First time was a panic stop to avoid a witches eye.  I was in third gear,  crested over a dune and there it was. I clutched in, shifted from 3rd to 2nd to 1st without lifting the clutch pedal.  Planned to drop the clutch in 1st and power out and the car just locked to the ground.   Tried several times to power out and just buried the rear tires. Took all the power I could apply while slipping the clutch to get the rear tires to turn.

Car went into neutral just fine, could grab 1st gear just fine but still like it was line locked.

Hopped out and checked the car out.  Checked rear midboard temps, warm on both sides but not hot.  Checked the front brakes and could jiggle the inner and outer brake pads.  Went to the back and couldn't get to the pads but decided to bleed off the brake lines and the calipers. No squirt of fluid and no difference in being locked to the earth. 

@Squatcher was with us and he mentioned he had an air bag jack at camp and a co2 bottle. So he went back to camp.  An hour passes, he comes back, we jack up the whole back of the car.  Grab the tires and they spin just fine. I thought I head a faint click when they turned and thought maybe the trans was locked into a couple of gears with the possibility of my down shifting without lifting the clutch between gears.  Car and trans worked fine the rest of the trip.

Forward to this last weekend.  Went out for a dune run Friday morning. Solo, Was enjoying a nice ride when I crested over another dune and had to break fast to avoid another chitty spot.  I also down shifted but from 2nd to 1st and never came to a stop.  Lifted the clutch and the engine shut off and the car locked to the ground again.  I played with the turning brakes and worked the shifter between gears a walla is was ok.  Drove out and finished that run.   It is brakes or the trans, I still dont know at this point.

Saturday, we leave Pad 2 for a morning run to Duners Dinner.  Good run no issue and make it there.  Head back from the dinner and were moving along and having fun.  Get back to Roadrunner and the group wants to play so we step up and into the dunes.  We're into the groove and we get the radio call that our buddy Tom has blown his engine. I circle back around to find him side hilled with a rod hanging out.  I roll into a flat are below the dune.  Get into neutral, let the clutch out and idle for a few minuets to cool off the engine.  Shut it down and we all enjoy a cold beverage and make the plans to tow out Tom.  

So I am up to the task and hop in to get into position.  Fire up, shift into 1st, let the clutch out and I am glued to the earth again.  No prior panic stop, basic roll into the spot without using the brakes.  Tried everything again, shift in and out no difference, bleed off all the brakes, no difference, tried to power out and just burried the car again.  

Send part of the group back to camp for the floor jacks and a shovel.  We dig under, get the jacks on both rear sides,  jack it up and the rear tires roll like last time.  Fill in the sand holes and drive out like nothing is wrong.

Can this S4 get stuck into 2 gears, can I have one gear maybe fused on one shaft? Is it a cool off period thats in play here? Trans temp was 178 deg when I stopped this time.

Or am I dealing with some brake issue.  

Brought the car home and planning on pulling the trans but have some hesitation as I just don't know whats actually happening.

Thanks in advance.

And just to be clear, This is not your classic spin the tires and get buried from a stop.

Erik
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Started reading this yesterday and got distracted/busy.

First thing I would do is jack the car up, fire it up, and run it through the gears up and down a few times. 

Due to the irregular nature of the problem, it's hard to point at anything in the trans. If something is coming apart in the trans, it will happen every time the car moves or fires up.

If the trans is somehow getting into 2 gears at once, you are not going anywhere. You would have pull the axles just to tow the car back to camp.

A question I have:

1. Is the motor spinning up in RPM when you are getting stuck? Or is it bogging?

Things I would suggest investigating:

1. Brake system: Check the master cylinder. Is it possible the master is sticking and not releasing brake pressure somewhere?

2. CV's: Just because. Pull the boots, make sure everything is assembled properly. I would assume these would be making a racket when moving. But have heard otherwise. 

3. Makes sure the axles are not pulling the splines out of the CV (if you are getting RPM out of the motor when getting stuck). Ask @L.R.S.about this. Feels like a broken input shaft, but can come and go depending on suspension cycles.

 
Sean@Weddle said:
Started reading this yesterday and got distracted/busy.

First thing I would do is jack the car up, fire it up, and run it through the gears up and down a few times. 

Due to the irregular nature of the problem, it's hard to point at anything in the trans. If something is coming apart in the trans, it will happen every time the car moves or fires up.

If the trans is somehow getting into 2 gears at once, you are not going anywhere. You would have pull the axles just to tow the car back to camp.

A question I have:

1. Is the motor spinning up in RPM when you are getting stuck? Or is it bogging? No its a big load. and will kill the engine without tons of throttle and clutch work.

Things I would suggest investigating:

1. Brake system: Check the master cylinder. Is it possible the master is sticking and not releasing brake pressure somewhere? Broke all the lines/connections at each master, at each caliper and even at the caliper bleeders. 

2. CV's: Just because. Pull the boots, make sure everything is assembled properly. I would assume these would be making a racket when moving. But have heard otherwise. Axles plunged during this and didnt feel bound up.

3. Makes sure the axles are not pulling the splines out of the CV (if you are getting RPM out of the motor when getting stuck). Ask @L.R.S.about this. Feels like a broken input shaft, but can come and go depending on suspension cycles.
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See quote with replies above.

 
Grease Monkey said:
See quote with replies above.
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I got nothin! LOL

Got yourself a true mystery problem here. 

It would take some serious drag to bog down a V8 engine and stall it. I can't imagine anything in the transaxle would still be working intermittently between these stall/bog events. 

I am assuming you have drained the oil in the trans since this started? If there is an issue inside the trans, the oil and magnet on the drain plug will be a tell-tale sign of internal problems. 

If the oil is good, I would put this thing up on jack stands, remove axles, fire it up and row it through the gears a bunch to see if the issue happens without the other drivetrain items to drag it down. 

 
Sean@Weddle said:
I got nothin! LOL

Got yourself a true mystery problem here. 

It would take some serious drag to bog down a V8 engine and stall it. I can't imagine anything in the transaxle would still be working intermittently between these stall/bog events. 

I am assuming you have drained the oil in the trans since this started? If there is an issue inside the trans, the oil and magnet on the drain plug will be a tell-tale sign of internal problems. 

If the oil is good, I would put this thing up on jack stands, remove axles, fire it up and row it through the gears a bunch to see if the issue happens without the other drivetrain items to drag it down. 
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When we got it jacked up both time in the sand, I ran it thru all the gears including reverse.  No issues.................

Got me thinking its still in the brakes.  Thanks for taking the time.

 
If the trans is what's locking up, how are you able to bury it in the sand?  Do both rear wheel bury?

 
Kraut_n_Rice said:
If the trans is what's locking up, how are you able to bury it in the sand?  Do both rear wheel bury?
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Yes both wheels.  It takes a ton of HP and feathering the clutch to get the rear tires to turn.  I would not even call it spin.  It feels like the brakes are line locked but can still get some power to the wheels.

 
Any way you can put street tires on it and try a medium panic stop? Also was the master new? I am wondering if during normal braking the the pedal travel is minimal versus a hard stop and something is binding in the master and only after some time is it able to release. Just a thought. I could be way wrong.

 
ChasingSand said:
Any way you can put street tires on it and try a medium panic stop? Also was the master new? I am wondering if during normal braking the the pedal travel is minimal versus a hard stop and something is binding in the master and only after some time is it able to release. Just a thought. I could be way wrong.
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Everything was brand new in 2022.  

I did have a grey area caliper leaking and had to reseal. Maybe somewhere to start. 

I'll start another post and leave this to transaxles. 

 
sure sounds like a hub to me. jacked up ,no load on the bearing. weight on the bearing no workie

 
pulled the trigger on an s4. 

i have a new question. the 2D i was running was clutched with a single disk 6 puck stage 3. After the s4 upgrade I will get working on a new power plant shooting for around 600 crank hp. I would like to upgrade to a 2 disk stage 3 to support the power. I know in the truck and car world a double disk is essentially "on-off" and much more difficult to drive with very little slip. how much of that transfers over to the sand car world? is a twin disk even necessary at that power level?

 
ranman5608 said:
pulled the trigger on an s4. 

i have a new question. the 2D i was running was clutched with a single disk 6 puck stage 3. After the s4 upgrade I will get working on a new power plant shooting for around 600 crank hp. I would like to upgrade to a 2 disk stage 3 to support the power. I know in the truck and car world a double disk is essentially "on-off" and much more difficult to drive with very little slip. how much of that transfers over to the sand car world? is a twin disk even necessary at that power level?
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Weddle has an 11” single disc that is rated for 600 ft/lb. Using this would require a full size Chevy style bell housing and a different starter. Engagement is smooth as butter and pedal pressure is light compared to a stage three setup

 
ranman5608 said:
pulled the trigger on an s4. 

i have a new question. the 2D i was running was clutched with a single disk 6 puck stage 3. After the s4 upgrade I will get working on a new power plant shooting for around 600 crank hp. I would like to upgrade to a 2 disk stage 3 to support the power. I know in the truck and car world a double disk is essentially "on-off" and much more difficult to drive with very little slip. how much of that transfers over to the sand car world? is a twin disk even necessary at that power level?
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If you stick with VW bellhousing, Kennedy dual disc, 9", stage 4 for that much power.

Trust me, I learned the hard way and my 8" lasted 3 trips when I went up in power.

I am at 535 to the ground, so 650ish crank?

 
lincster said:
If you stick with VW bellhousing, Kennedy dual disc, 9", stage 4 for that much power.

Trust me, I learned the hard way and my 8" lasted 3 trips when I went up in power.

I am at 535 to the ground, so 650ish crank?
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what's engagement like with a dual disc? is it more difficult putting it into the trailer having hardly any slip?

 
Sandkist said:
Weddle has an 11” single disc that is rated for 600 ft/lb. Using this would require a full size Chevy style bell housing and a different starter. Engagement is smooth as butter and pedal pressure is light compared to a stage three setup
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ill be sticking with the vw bell unfortunately due to space constraints. I actually really like my stage 3 setup 

 
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