Speed UTV

Honestly, and speaking as a self admitted preorder holder who could go buy a RZR Pro if I wanted.

The only thing the RZR has on the speed which of course is unproven, is the engine. Both their engines are unproven at this point. Either one or both could be dumpster fires. 

However I think if both turn out to be good or acceptable, that's the only leg up.

Every other aspect goes to Speed. 

As a realist and someone who is not a brand nut hugger I can admit that. 

Just as previous RZRs, everything else from the walk-around chupacabra did today, looks like it needs to be replaced.

The cage along with the chassis looks to be an unsafe jungle gym in comparison to the speed, then you have everything else beyond that. Suspension, shocks, joints, reinforcement, power steering, geometry, price etc.

The list goes on. 

I will say if the RZR was the speed car with the 2.0 I would probably jump ship.

We will find out soon enough, my buddy just ordered a $45k 4 seat RZR Pro. 
Who was the engine shop that RG used to design the Speed engine? Was it Arrington? If I had to bet on who knows how to design an engine, my money would be on Arrington, not Polaris. I think NASCAR demands and requires a level of performance and knowledge that Polaris is incapable of. My logic tells me if Polaris was at that level, they'd be building competitive NASCAR engines for someone.

Over and above the fact that Polaris denies that this 2L engine is the same as the Slingshot engine (I believe them) this makes this a first year engine. Surprisingly enough for all of the haters, their fear of the first yr of a Speed UTV applies even more so with Polaris, based on history, I can see why so many SxS owners are gun shy about first yr models.

 
To see what the competition is doing.  If you don’t think they looked over the Can Am X3,  Polaris Turbo S and XP Pro and the other brands you are fooling yourself.   
 

If you don’t think they are a little concerned with what Polaris just introduced you got your head in the sand.   The Pro R and Pro Turbo are going to take away some future sells and who knows some deposit holders may be selling their spots.  

The UTV crowed are fickle and we like the next shiny ride. 
 
Do me a favor and list all of the innovations on the Pro R that would be beneficial to RG. Don't bother to list the gadget groove stuff like live valve or whatever the thingamajig is that sends the terrain info between vehicles.

Can you also show me anything that RG copied or learned from Can Am or Polaris? Besides you know, double shear is better and ball joints = bad. 

 
I will say if the RZR was the speed car with the 2.0 I would probably jump ship.

We will find out soon enough, my buddy just ordered a $45k 4 seat RZR Pro. 
There's absolutely nothing stopping Robby from introducing a future model with a 2L 4 cyl model with a turbo making 550hp on E85 (less hp/L than the current engine) with a sequential 6 speed designed by Albins. Of course it would come after the enclosed model with A/C. 

How much would a prerunner like that cost RG to build and how much would people pay for one? I imagine the 1/2 ton truck based prerunners are pretty pricey.

I've always felt it's cheaper/easier to increase hp on a well designed vehicle than to completely redesign an unsafe chassis with poor suspension geometry and weak ball joints. 

 
Agreed, however I'm not looking to boost HP, I enjoy reliability. 

There is no doubt an NA motor is more reliable than boosted.

Also for reference, a Stewart prerunner cost $6-800k. I don't know if that is what you were referring to.
True, N/A is generally more reliable, but if necessary it would still be cheaper to replace all internals with forged parts and mildly boost the engine than it would be to completely redesign the chassis and suspension. I'm just explaining my reasoning behind my vehicle choices without having the entire pack come in here and accuse me of being an RG nut swinger for the 50th time.

I believe the current vehicles from Canam and Polaris have more than enough power and they should have concentrated on better chassis and suspension with the current models. Case in point, was it Wayne Matlock who was doing 106 mph in the Pro R down in Baja? While most people are impressed with that speed, my first reaction was "no way would I want to wreck in that thing at 106 mph."

As for the Stewart prerunner price, I guess I'm not surprised, but aren't there some lesser well known, lower priced ones maybe in the $200-500k range?

I was thinking if Robby built one like mentioned above and he sold it for somewhere between $75k - $95k, it might be a good value for what it is. Obviously not a direct competitor to a 1/2 ton truck vehicle, but with 25" of travel and 500+ hp and 4wd, it might do very well as a prerunner down in Baja.

 
Who was the engine shop that RG used to design the Speed engine? Was it Arrington? If I had to bet on who knows how to design an engine, my money would be on Arrington, not Polaris. I think NASCAR demands and requires a level of performance and knowledge that Polaris is incapable of. My logic tells me if Polaris was at that level, they'd be building competitive NASCAR engines for someone.

Over and above the fact that Polaris denies that this 2L engine is the same as the Slingshot engine (I believe them) this makes this a first year engine. Surprisingly enough for all of the haters, their fear of the first yr of a Speed UTV applies even more so with Polaris, based on history, I can see why so many SxS owners are gun shy about first yr models.
Nice to see your back! We’re you on a bacation? As for motors, I would think your assumptions would be correct but isn’t RG on like his third rendition of motor for the Speed car with the current motor having oiling issues? Also, one of the last update videos I saw, his el jefe wouldn’t stay running on cold start. He even chuckled with embarrassment saying it was cold blooded. Sounds like along with oiling problems they need to tweak the tune still?

 
Do me a favor and list all of the innovations on the Pro R that would be beneficial to RG. Don't bother to list the gadget groove stuff like live valve or whatever the thingamajig is that sends the terrain info between vehicles.

Can you also show me anything that RG copied or learned from Can Am or Polaris? Besides you know, double shear is better and ball joints = bad. 
Do me a favor and open your eyes and know that the end all be all is not the Speed UTV.  Yes we all agree the overall design of the frame is better than the competition and the suspension design appears to be on point and the material he uses for the suspension arms is much better. 

Any company that is in the Sport UTV manufacture business that does not look at what the competition is doing is stupid and will be doomed to fail.  They will get left in the dust if they do not take a peek and see what their competitors might be doing better.  You don't think Polaris and Can Am will not grab a Speed UTV at some point and have a look?  Although they may not have to as all the CAD drawings and design is out there. 

Off the top of my head - The new wheeling bearing design is much better.  I guess you don't thing a 5 lug would be stronger either.   The clutches are much larger than any other and the ducting set up for air flow behind and in front of the clutches as well as the clutch cover itself.   The transmission set up to the motor.  The new front diff they are using that has a 1:1 ratio for better traction out of the hole and pulling you through the corners. 

You say not to list the technology stuff, but that is also what will separate the Polaris from Speed and other competitors.  The new Dynamic suspension set up is quite sophisticated and has a lot going on.  More adjustability with the settings means the average user will not need shock work done (you know the selling point of Speed).  Ride Command is a built in  GPS unit with some other cool features (look another thing the consumer would not have to buy).  You want to gloss over the throttle settings that allow the driver to switch the throttle response?   These are all things that will lure a consumer to purchase one.

Yes Speed has the really nice dash to display with the ability to mirror you smart phone.  That is a selling point.  

NASCAR motors can go boom and currently Speed is still tinkering with motor.  Jury is still out on the motor and how they will last.   Polaris has been using the 4 banger motor in the Slingshot and it appears to be holding up. Of course they have made some changes to the motor to make it perform better.  Polaris can build a decent motor, but they are no Rotax motor or Yamaha motor. 

 
True, N/A is generally more reliable, but if necessary it would still be cheaper to replace all internals with forged parts and mildly boost the engine than it would be to completely redesign the chassis and suspension. I'm just explaining my reasoning behind my vehicle choices without having the entire pack come in here and accuse me of being an RG nut swinger for the 50th time.

I believe the current vehicles from Canam and Polaris have more than enough power and they should have concentrated on better chassis and suspension with the current models. Case in point, was it Wayne Matlock who was doing 106 mph in the Pro R down in Baja? While most people are impressed with that speed, my first reaction was "no way would I want to wreck in that thing at 106 mph."

As for the Stewart prerunner price, I guess I'm not surprised, but aren't there some lesser well known, lower priced ones maybe in the $200-500k range?

I was thinking if Robby built one like mentioned above and he sold it for somewhere between $75k - $95k, it might be a good value for what it is. Obviously not a direct competitor to a 1/2 ton truck vehicle, but with 25" of travel and 500+ hp and 4wd, it might do very well as a prerunner down in Baja.
Your assumptions on the Pro R not being a safe vehicle are just assumptions at this point.  

We all know why you choose the Speed UTV.  The same reason you went with a Wildcat. You like the frame design.  

 
Regarding your last point. 

I thought the Polairs slingshot engine was a complete piece of chit and they have been having problems with it?

Also I could refute a few of your points but it's literally going in circles now.
I really have no idea on the new Slingshot motor and why I said appears.  I think they just started using the motor in 2020.   It is Polaris and they like recalls.  

My whole point to LOTD is not that the Polaris is better or has brought "game changing" stuff to the table, but RG and company would be foolish not to have a peek to see what is going on and give them more points why the Speed UTV is better to the future buyers.  If a company is in it for the long haul you have to know what your competitors are doing.  

You know a lot more than I know about off-road race cars/trucks and set ups that work. I know you look at the Speed UTV as a well set up desert race car.  You can articulate your points and not come off as a fanboy.  I also think you can look at other brands and appreciate what they are trying to do whether bad or good.  You do not immediately brush it off.

 
Your assumptions on the Pro R not being a safe vehicle are just assumptions at this point.  

We all know why you choose the Speed UTV.  The same reason you went with a Wildcat. You like the frame design.  
I think it's an improvement over previous designs, but you're welcome to drive one through the desert at over 100 mph to prove your faith in it. Good luck. Yes, I prefer stronger chassis for safety reasons. Only idiots would try to claim that's some sort of character flaw.

It's funny how you gloss over DTA's statements below (take note of the UNSAFE JUNGLE GYM comment, my favorite!) yet you want to argue over every. little. word. I. post.

Just as previous RZRs, everything else from the walk-around chupacabra did today, looks like it needs to be replaced.

The cage along with the chassis looks to be an unsafe jungle gym in comparison to the speed, then you have everything else beyond that. Suspension, shocks, joints, reinforcement, power steering, geometry, price etc.

The list goes on. 
I agree with everything he said. Why? Because it's true, and can be proven in a lab, if anyone wanted to stress test the components. 

But when I say the exact same thing, I'm some sort of fanboi.  :lol:

The truth is the truth, period, no matter who you heard it from or how uncomfortable it is.

 
I think it's an improvement over previous designs, but you're welcome to drive one through the desert at over 100 mph to prove your faith in it. Good luck. Yes, I prefer stronger chassis for safety reasons. Only idiots would try to claim that's some sort of character flaw.

It's funny how you gloss over DTA's statements below (take note of the UNSAFE JUNGLE GYM comment, my favorite!) yet you want to argue over every. little. word. I. post.

I agree with everything he said. Why? Because it's true, and can be proven in a lab, if anyone wanted to stress test the components. 

But when I say the exact same thing, I'm some sort of fanboi.  :lol:

The truth is the truth, period, no matter who you heard it from or how uncomfortable it is.
The difference is he says "looks to be" and compared to the Speed UTV.  He does not straight out say it is unsafe.  You just blurt stuff and make it sound more fanboy.  LOL!

I have not looked over Pro R frame closely. The cage looks okay.  A much better effort than what comes on the Turbo S or prior models.   

I have taken chances in my "unsafe" X3 and took it to 90+ many times and down dirt trails at 80+ with the stock cage at the time.   Stupid front end did not fall off, just the back.  LOL!   New car is limited to 89mph.  

 
Honestly, and speaking as a self admitted preorder holder who could go buy a RZR Pro if I wanted.

The only thing the RZR has on the speed which of course is unproven, is the engine. Both their engines are unproven at this point. Either one or both could be dumpster fires. 

However I think if both turn out to be good or acceptable, that's the only leg up.

Every other aspect goes to Speed. 

As a realist and someone who is not a brand nut hugger I can admit that. 

Just as previous RZRs, everything else from the walk-around chupacabra did today, looks like it needs to be replaced.

The cage along with the chassis looks to be an unsafe jungle gym in comparison to the speed, then you have everything else beyond that. Suspension, shocks, joints, reinforcement, power steering, geometry, price etc.

The list goes on. 

I will say if the RZR was the speed car with the 2.0 I would probably jump ship.

We will find out soon enough, my buddy just ordered a $45k 4 seat RZR Pro. 
I agree after watching the video and if your going to put more power and add weight to a vehicle you need to make sure the frame and other components are able to handle it. With that said I don't mean you now go out and spend another 30k or more on after market to get there.

 
Do me a favor and open your eyes and know that the end all be all is not the Speed UTV.  Yes we all agree the overall design of the frame is better than the competition and the suspension design appears to be on point and the material he uses for the suspension arms is much better. Is the Speed perfect? No, I still see room for improvement, small improvements. You just admitted it's superiority in all of the important areas, just not in the debatable gimmick area. I don't want or need gimmicks.

Any company that is in the Sport UTV manufacture business that does not look at what the competition is doing is stupid and will be doomed to fail.  They will get left in the dust if they do not take a peek and see what their competitors might be doing better.  That's why I asked you to point out what Polaris is doing better. Besides putting out slick advertising videos.  :lol:

You don't think Polaris and Can Am will not grab a Speed UTV at some point and have a look?  Although they may not have to as all the CAD drawings and design is out there. Of course they will have a look. Searching in vain for a ball joint, somewhere - anywhere!  :lol:

Off the top of my head - The new wheeling bearing design is much better.  I guess you don't thing a 5 lug would be stronger either.  Their wheel bearing is stronger than their previous ones, but guess who has an even larger bearing in an even stronger hub? You know who!  :lol:  I do think 5 lug COULD be stronger than 4 lug, if the lugs are equal strength. How often do you see the lugs sheer off, as opposed to the ball joints popping off? If you watch the Shock Therapy video, they found out their broken wheel studs had been too brittle, they tested the Rockwell hardness with a machine. See, there is more to it than just the number of lugs. The material and hardness matters as well, so I can't comment on the strength of their 5 lug setup until then. You are correct, 5 shitty lugs is better than just 4 shitty lugs. 

The clutches are much larger than any other and the ducting set up for air flow behind and in front of the clutches as well as the clutch cover itself. Now you're on to something. It does look very well designed. I wonder who designed it for them. There's no arguing larger dia. clutches is better for belt temps/life and the cooling looks like it might be effective. I sure hope so, since they mounted the clutches behind the seats. You know, like the old 900. History repeats itself!

 The transmission set up to the motor.  The new front diff they are using that has a 1:1 ratio for better traction out of the hole and pulling you through the corners. I'm confused. Don't all of them have the same diff ratio front and rear?

You say not to list the technology stuff, but that is also what will separate the Polaris from Speed and other competitors.  The new Dynamic suspension set up is quite sophisticated and has a lot going on.  More adjustability with the settings means the average user will not need shock work done (you know the selling point of Speed). That's a WILD assumption on your part. Yes it gives the driver a pushbutton on the dash, but how much it varies the valving and if it's the correct valving is yet to be seen. If it's so awesome, why did RJ use his own shocks in the lowrider and drifting video? The STOCK ones should have been just fine, following your assumptions.

Ride Command is a built in  GPS unit with some other cool features (look another thing the consumer would not have to buy).  You want to gloss over the throttle settings that allow the driver to switch the throttle response?   These are all things that will lure a consumer to purchase one. I think those are gimmicks. I added Lowrance GPS to my rides. No big deal, I certainly would NOT buy a vehicle just because that was in the dash. Adjustable throttle response? Might be useful, although experienced drivers probably know how to adjust the throttle. With their foot.
Now here is where we might agree. A little bit.

I'm interested in seeing how Matlock does with the Pro R in 1200+ mi of Baja. I hope it finishes and I hope it's as good of a UTV as he is a driver, if so, he might win and I'd be very happy for him and Polaris. I do like their front suspension arm design, it looks very strong, but the weak point is still going to be the ball joints. If those hold up, then it's all good!

The 4 cyl 2L engine is nowhere near stressed at 125 hp/L, so they have a clear path to making lots more power in the future, but that doesn't stop someone else from making a 2L turbo version with 500 - 550 hp, so it's not an exclusive, patentable advantage and at 225 hp, it's not 300hp. Add in how much it weighs and it's obviously fast, but probably not quick.

I don't know the answer, but did Matlock modify anything on it before going racing? If so, then the public isn't getting what they saw on the racetrack. 

I think the other guy is going to race the same thing he's selling, if he does race it in any future races.  

I just want you to consider this. Remember back in school when you got 100% on a test? Did you go over to the guy who got a 74% on his test and look at his paper to see if you could learn something from it?

No, me neither. Maybe that's why I didn't think RG was going to look at the competition for any good ideas.     :lol:

 
Nice to see your back! We’re you on a bacation? As for motors, I would think your assumptions would be correct but isn’t RG on like his third rendition of motor for the Speed car with the current motor having oiling issues? Also, one of the last update videos I saw, his el jefe wouldn’t stay running on cold start. He even chuckled with embarrassment saying it was cold blooded. Sounds like along with oiling problems they need to tweak the tune still?
No vacation. For what? I'm not the guy who posted the N word on the board. I also noticed you didn't make a squeak about that.

I don't think of it as renditions, they're running them (one over 10,000 mi to date) and making running changes as they find stuff, which is the whole point of testing. If they do 500 iterations before he releases it, that's fine with me, as long as it's reliable when he releases it. I like that process a whole lot better than sell it to the public and deny the warranty when it failed (going back to the 800s and 900s) or the inevitable stop sell/stop ride that they are famous for.

 
Who was the engine shop that RG used to design the Speed engine? Was it Arrington? If I had to bet on who knows how to design an engine, my money would be on Arrington, not Polaris. I think NASCAR demands and requires a level of performance and knowledge that Polaris is incapable of. My logic tells me if Polaris was at that level, they'd be building competitive NASCAR engines for someone.

Over and above the fact that Polaris denies that this 2L engine is the same as the Slingshot engine (I believe them) this makes this a first year engine. Surprisingly enough for all of the haters, their fear of the first yr of a Speed UTV applies even more so with Polaris, based on history, I can see why so many SxS owners are gun shy about first yr models.
I though the easiest way to define a SXS was less then 1000cc and not how much one could spend on stock car or adding aftermarket parts. Not sure how the sanctioned race clubs look at it but at what point does a SXS become a sand car or off road car just like anything else. The option for the 4 cyl 2 liter is cool but can you still say its a SXS. Also I had asked eariler but no one answered do you still need to wear a helmet in the 2 liter rzr? Or now that it is over 1000cc it like any thing else in the sand dunes?

 
The difference is he says "looks to be" and compared to the Speed UTV.  He does not straight out say it is unsafe.  You just blurt stuff and make it sound more fanboy.  LOL!

I have not looked over Pro R frame closely. The cage looks okay.  A much better effort than what comes on the Turbo S or prior models.   

I have taken chances in my "unsafe" X3 and took it to 90+ many times and down dirt trails at 80+ with the stock cage at the time.   Stupid front end did not fall off, just the back.  LOL!   New car is limited to 89mph.  
I see the same things he sees and point out the same things, good or bad.

Sorry if the word "IS" is so triggering while "looks like" is so much more soothing.

It "looks like" I'll need to be more careful how I word things.  😉

But seriously - I'm glad nothing bad happened, and I'm sure under "normal" conditions nothing will. I'm just paranoid about when someone makes a mistake or a boulder or tree suddenly gets in the way. That's when I wish/hope everyone has a safe suspension and cage. We should all have fun and stay safe at the same time.

 
Sounds like Robby was trying to get a peak at the new popo, but that’s something all manufacturers do. Robby has been comparing the Speed UTV to the other competitors from the first presentations. Why would he stop with new releases  I’m interested in seeing if he fights the shock being mounted to lower a-arm  F7136A5F-DF48-4514-B7CB-03B4D28BE029.jpeg

 
Now here is where we might agree. A little bit.

I'm interested in seeing how Matlock does with the Pro R in 1200+ mi of Baja. I hope it finishes and I hope it's as good of a UTV as he is a driver, if so, he might win and I'd be very happy for him and Polaris. I do like their front suspension arm design, it looks very strong, but the weak point is still going to be the ball joints. If those hold up, then it's all good!

The 4 cyl 2L engine is nowhere near stressed at 125 hp/L, so they have a clear path to making lots more power in the future, but that doesn't stop someone else from making a 2L turbo version with 500 - 550 hp, so it's not an exclusive, patentable advantage and at 225 hp, it's not 300hp. Add in how much it weighs and it's obviously fast, but probably not quick.

I don't know the answer, but did Matlock modify anything on it before going racing? If so, then the public isn't getting what they saw on the racetrack. 

I think the other guy is going to race the same thing he's selling, if he does race it in any future races.  

I just want you to consider this. Remember back in school when you got 100% on a test? Did you go over to the guy who got a 74% on his test and look at his paper to see if you could learn something from it?

No, me neither. Maybe that's why I didn't think RG was going to look at the competition for any good ideas.     :lol:
I am sure Matlock has the shocks valved and sprung to his liking for the race application.  He is still running the live valve set up. Obviously the cage required to race SCORE and fuel cell.  Suspension arms look to be stock and the trailing arms.  They did do an exhaust as they had to make room for the fuel cell.   He will likely finish the race as he always finds a way to finish.  Him winning overall for the UTVs is unlikely in a new UTV.   

Here let me help you out - RJ Anderson is sponsored by Walker Evans Racing, which is the company his dad owns.  That is why he ran Walker Shocks on the car.   Oh and those were stock a-arms and trailing arms he was running in that video.  Did you see the frame break in half when he over shot that jump? Me neither.  A hit like that should of folded the entire car if we believe your thoughts on the frame. 

Have you ever driven or been in a UTV with the Live Value set up?  I am going to guess not.   The Polaris system is not just a push the button to change the suspension feel.  The new system is 4 different settings and an "oh chit button" on the steering wheel for when you want full stiff (The vigara of suspension. LOL).  The system also monitors each corner and can adjust the shocks to reduce body roll and the front from diving.  New system does hi/low speed compression and rebound adjustments.  It is not a perfect system, but for some person that does not want to tinker with shocks it is a good set up.

The Can Am Smart shock set up has a ways to go.  Hence why I did not hold out for a Smart Shock model. 

If I got 100% on a test I was not bragging about it and telling everyone how much smarter I was then them.  LOL!

In you mind RG should never look at a competitors car.  How did he figure out what was needed to build a UTV and make it better, if he never looked at what was out there?  

 
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