Speed UTV

[Crusty]

So he said:

Arrival on Jan. 11th and delivery Mid-February.

EPA Testing one more time. CARB still not approved, they didn't want to delay anymore.

12,12,24 then up to 500

:dunno:

Good Luck to RG and Speed on making it happen as promised this last show.

 

[Rockwood]

PoPo Firebomb for comparison:

This is the side-effect of a suspension that doesn't have positive camber at full droop.  What goes up, must come down, so that same suspension doesn't gain camber as it compresses.  All suspension design is about compromises.  This picture for the Speed is definitely worse than normal corner since caster will gain/lose camber, but it's definitely there:



You can see how the front is chewing the outside of the tire mercilessly.  Bumpsteer isn't everything, sometimes you have to turn.

 

[1HasBeen]

I found it interesting how much he focused on "arguing", "they pushed back... we pushed back" in that Instagram. I think they will find it a constant challenge to ride herd on Hisun on the QC front.

 

[Sand Shark]

View attachment 54981

PoPo Firebomb for comparison:



This is the side-effect of a suspension that doesn't have positive camber at full droop.  What goes up, must come down, so that same suspension doesn't gain camber as it compresses.  All suspension design is about compromises.  This picture for the Speed is definitely worse than normal corner since caster will gain/lose camber, but it's definitely there:

View attachment 54985

You can see how the front is chewing the outside of the tire mercilessly.  Bumpsteer isn't everything, sometimes you have to turn.

Way less body roll in the Pro R too. 

 

[JBL]

View attachment 54981

PoPo Firebomb for comparison:



This is the side-effect of a suspension that doesn't have positive camber at full droop.  What goes up, must come down, so that same suspension doesn't gain camber as it compresses.  All suspension design is about compromises.  This picture for the Speed is definitely worse than normal corner since caster will gain/lose camber, but it's definitely there:

View attachment 54985

You can see how the front is chewing the outside of the tire mercilessly.  Bumpsteer isn't everything, sometimes you have to turn.

Can you really call that a fair comparison as turning on street vs dirt are way different.  I recall the top pic of Speed was on hard pack dirt.  The RZR is on loose pack clearly.  just trying to add to the 300 count! 

But lets be real, once Chupacabbara gets his videos up for his thoughts and reviews, the total count will easily climb to 500!  Hey Sand Shark, bet you never imagined a thread you created will hit 500! LMFAO

 

[Sand Shark]

Can you really call that a fair comparison as turning on street vs dirt are way different.  I recall the top pic of Speed was on hard pack dirt.  The RZR is on loose pack clearly.  just trying to add to the 300 count! 

But lets be real, once Chupacabbara gets his videos up for his thoughts and reviews, the total count will easily climb to 500!  Hey Sand Shark, bet you never imagined a thread you created will hit 500! LMFAO

Your body roll tire chewing Speed UTV better be here before this thread reaches 500.  LOL!

Do you think we can get Nikal, LOTD, and DTA back for the 500th post?

Nick will do a decent job of reviewing his Speed UTV.  I would much rather has a Speed UTV in the hands of the SXS Blog guys.  They find ways to push beyond. 

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

Nick will do a decent job of reviewing his Speed UTV.  

I don't know Nick except watching some of his content, som please don't flame me for asking  - honest Q, will he get "bribed"  or will he be honest.  If RG is "getting him" an early number, RG expects the review to be Stellar.. ego aside, he is confident for some reason...

 

[Sand Shark]

I don't know Nick except watching some of his content, som please don't flame me for asking  - honest Q, will he get "bribed"  or will he be honest.  If RG is "getting him" an early number, RG expects the review to be Stellar.. ego aside, he is confident for some reason...

I think Nick will give a honest review for the most part.  There might be some bias, which would be understandable when you bought something.

Nick put his deposit down early on and I don't think RG moved him up or did any favors.  I bet RG had no clue who Nick was when he put the deposit down on the Speed UTV.  He obviously figured out he makes aftermarket products and does good video content. 

Nick is a super nice guy and overall I think he will do a good job of reviewing the car. 

RG thinks everything he does is the best so I am sure he expects nothing but raving reviews. 

 

[Rockwood]

Can you really call that a fair comparison as turning on street vs dirt are way different.  I recall the top pic of Speed was on hard pack dirt.  The RZR is on loose pack clearly.  just trying to add to the 300 count! 

But lets be real, once Chupacabbara gets his videos up for his thoughts and reviews, the total count will easily climb to 500!  Hey Sand Shark, bet you never imagined a thread you created will hit 500! LMFAO

Nope.  But here's similar (tires were howling and speeds were much higher when this screenshot was taken):





You can easily see the difference in contact patch based on two different suspension philosophies.  As I've said throughout this thread: suspension is about compromises.  Just because the competition chose something different doesn't mean yours is better unless you point out very specific use-cases (yes, including asphalt grip for dirt cars).

 

[Rockwood]

Source videos for above:

You can see how the Speed catches Robby (who is a VERY good driver) sleeping at 0:47 while Nick (who is good, but not Robby) can absolutely send it around the FF.  Granted, Nick had more space than Robby, but the poking and prodding needed for the Speed is obvious.  The geometry of the Speed will be useful for open desert whoops, no doubt, but compromises need to be made somewhere.

 

[WheresHotBoat]

Way less body roll in the Pro R too. 

The Pro R's tires are pointed straight, what exactly are you trying to compare?

 

[Rockwood]

The Pro R's tires are pointed straight, what exactly are you trying to compare?

Camber gain to maintain contact patch.  Since both cars have positive caster, the Polaris with its tires pointed straight should have less camber (and a worse contact patch) than one turned, but it doesn't.   Body roll wise, you can see the difference in the 2 videos above.  Polaris is considerably flatter.

All just pontificating right now, since no one has really driven one, but the geometry that's been a subject throughout development is worth a discussion.  My guess, looking at the video and the suspension geometry, is the Speed UTV will be an animal in the whoops, but will suffer when it's time to turn.  Depending on your use case, this could be good or bad, but there's an awful lot of turning in the dunes...

 

[Sand Shark]

The Pro R's tires are pointed straight, what exactly are you trying to compare?

The Pro R is exiting a corner and the body roll is minimal.  The beauty of the live valve is the outside shocks adjust to minimize body roll.  

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

43 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Source videos for above:

While none of us are RG  -  He is as you said Very Good... my personal experience with the PRO-R consists of a lot of observed roll overs and unpredictability by some mid-experienced drivers (lots of 2 wheelin').  I do wonder if some of RG's compromises help or hurt that or he considered not everyone is RG?

I know a lot of people on GD believe the majority of Speed buyers are not New-bies and are coming from other SxS's or Sand cars  -  from my experience  there is still a learning curve on new cars, and SxS's are not very forgiving when you push them. 

Like my Z06 the grip in turns was great until it all of a sudden wasn't  :classic_biggrin:

 

[Bodywerks]

View attachment 54981

PoPo Firebomb for comparison:



This is the side-effect of a suspension that doesn't have positive camber at full droop.  What goes up, must come down, so that same suspension doesn't gain camber as it compresses.  All suspension design is about compromises.  This picture for the Speed is definitely worse than normal corner since caster will gain/lose camber, but it's definitely there:

View attachment 54985

You can see how the front is chewing the outside of the tire mercilessly.  Bumpsteer isn't everything, sometimes you have to turn.

I believe both Speed pictures are on asphalt. Robby said before that the body roll you see on asphalt is due to the spooled rear axle group, which causes the outer rear tire to drag, which causes the outer trailing arm to compress the shock. And it causes the inner tire to do exactly the opposite. That is what induces the body roll. It act totally different on dirt.

 

[Sand Shark]

While none of us are RG  -  He is as you said Very Good... my personal experience with the PRO-R consists of a lot of observed roll overs and unpredictability by some mid-experienced drivers (lots of 2 wheelin').  I do wonder if some of RG's compromises help or hurt that or he considered not everyone is RG?

I know a lot of people on GD believe the majority of Speed buyers are not New-bies and are coming from other SxS's or Sand cars  -  from my experience  there is still a learning curve on new cars, and SxS's are not very forgiving when you push them. 

Like my Z06 the grip in turns was great until it all of a sudden wasn't  :classic_biggrin:

Dunes seem to be where a majority of tipovers/rollovers happen.  Especially when the sand gets wet and edgy.  Lots of the rollovers/tips are due to people having little to no experience in a SXS let alone the dunes.   Stuff happens to even the most veteran drivers.   

Give people more hp and they will go faster without realizing they are coming into a corner too hot. 

I have a friend that is motorcross guy.  He went out and got a SXS.  I gave him the 3 important warnings for any new SXS owner - 1) no doughnuts; 2) no jumping; and 3) don't let others drive your ride.   He broke rule 3 and the person that was driving his nice SXS rolled it. minimal damage thankfully.  He has been breaking rule 2 and I suspect a call about broken axles or how he crashed it call coming soon. 

I agree people need to learn how to drive a SXS.    

 

[Bodywerks]

While none of us are RG  -  He is as you said Very Good... my personal experience with the PRO-R consists of a lot of observed roll overs and unpredictability by some mid-experienced drivers (lots of 2 wheelin').  I do wonder if some of RG's compromises help or hurt that or he considered not everyone is RG?

I know a lot of people on GD believe the majority of Speed buyers are not New-bies and are coming from other SxS's or Sand cars  -  from my experience  there is still a learning curve on new cars, and SxS's are not very forgiving when you push them. 

Like my Z06 the grip in turns was great until it all of a sudden wasn't  :classic_biggrin:

It's all about ROLL CENTER. The RG design is better in almost every way compared to typical trailing link designs. He and his design engineer explained it at length in one of his videos. It's high roll center that causes the rzr's to roll over. Even with the higher body roll of the RG design on asphalt, it still maintains a low roll center.

 

[ANGRYBUTTCRACK]

It's all about ROLL CENTER. The RG design is better in almost every way compared to typical trailing link designs. He and his design engineer explained it at length in one of his videos. It's high roll center that causes the rzr's to roll over. Even with the higher body roll of the RG design on asphalt, it still maintains a low roll center.

Newer RZRs like my 2 Turbo S models sit very high and you have to get used to the insane amount of body roll.

If ‘body roll’ is a concern, get a Canned Ham. They’re very ‘low slung’ and are for sure the superior dune vehicle IMO.

abc

PS. In all other venues I’ll take my RZRs all day. 

 

[Rockwood]

It's all about ROLL CENTER. The RG design is better in almost every way compared to typical trailing link designs. He and his design engineer explained it at length in one of his videos. It's high roll center that causes the rzr's to roll over. Even with the higher body roll of the RG design on asphalt, it still maintains a low roll center.

I showed earlier in this thread that the roll center of the PoPo is pretty close to what RG advertises (finding RC for a semi trailing arm needs top view) for the Speed. It’s nowhere near high enough (it’s entirely below the body) to cause geometric binding/jacking moments like stated in that video. 

One of the departees argued that it moves up and down, and yep, it does, but so does the car, so it stays a relatively consistent distance from CoG. 

Either way, watch the two videos and tell me which vehicle has body roll  sorted and which doesn’t. You can see Robby saving it from going over a couple of times when he’s drifting on the right side of the camera’s FOV. Nick is trail braking the sheeyit out of that Pro R, chopping throttle mid-drift, drifting over the banking to infield transition, going from grass to concrete, all with no threat of going over.

Previous to the Pro R: RZRs rolled because they’re tall and narrow, driven by people in over their head. 

 

[Rockwood]

I believe both Speed pictures are on asphalt. Robby said before that the body roll you see on asphalt is due to the spooled rear axle group, which causes the outer rear tire to drag, which causes the outer trailing arm to compress the shock. And it causes the inner tire to do exactly the opposite. That is what induces the body roll. It act totally different on dirt.

Pro R is spool rear as well, no? My second post on that shows both on asphalt. :biggrin: