Speed UTV

NIKAL said:
While I agree the profits on the cars that were purchased at the first price offering might not be making as much profit as first calculated. I don’t see them taking a loss, and the loss of profit is not because of mismanagement. It’s because of shortages, and the current market & inflation. No one could have seen this coming, and we know it’s not sustainable. Every business in this global economy is feeling this. Give Speed credit they have stood by the pricing people signed up at. Rivian electric vehicles tried to increase customers pricing and what happened is customers started cancelling orders. They had so many cancellations it was going to kill the company, so they backtracked and kept pre order pricing the same. 
 

Also I think less then 5K of the 12-15K cars ordered by customers or dealers was based on the original pricing offer. There have been several price increases since the original offering. The 4 seat LE has increased the price $6500 from the first intro price of $32K. Remember dealers will get these cars for less then the first buyers are paying, so Todd must be confident in their direct to consumer pricing. 

A few other things to consider that makes this venture different then some of these other products like Segway that have come & gone. A lot of these start ups now a days start selling off percentages of the company for money to start up or keep going, Think of Shark Tank where they sell 25% of their company for cash flow. But what happens if they sell so much of the company then there is no longer any value left. Robby & Todd own Speed UTV and yes they have bank loans, but my understanding is they do not have outside investors. Because of this I think Todd & Robby could see making a lower profit and still being successful. Polaris & BRP are traded companies with boards and shareholders that need to make a profit. They have to answer to these people quarterly. So they have to have greater overall profits and thinner margins to keep those investors happy.  If Polaris needs to have a 35% percent profit on vehicles and 45% on parts then Speed might be able to do it for 25% & 35%. (These % are just examples) I won’t say who told me, but it was said Speeds engineering costs are less then 1/10th of what the other manufactures spend to build an equal product. 
 

Something else to think about. Both Robby & Todd have been very successful in their other ventures, so they know how to run businesses. Without going through them all. One I found interesting was Todd & Dragonfire Racing. It was a off road race shop that started building Rhino parts. Within 3 years that company went from selling parts direct to consumers, to selling to dealerships to working with all the OEM’s directly. Todd said they went from $0 to $20 million in 3 years. In an interview Todd talked about being the first to create the concept for dealers to put his cages, seats & seat belts on new showroom cars and sell them pre built. Customers would pay the extra $3K and roll it into the loan. If bought separate they could not put it in the loan, so most would pay the premium. Dealers saw greeter sales, higher profits and that’s how the OEM’s started talking with Todd & Dragon Fire. Eventually Motorsports Marketing Group bought the company from him.

Both Robby & Todd have allot of experience in the UTV industry. Todd has literally worked with all the OEM’s, including John Deere at one point. Both have been involved in manufacturing and 3rd party suppliers too. Unlike allot of start ups or inventors who come up with a great idea, but don’t know how to build or run a business. These guys do. I think they will be ok and like everyone including you and me, we all just have to weather this economic storm we are in. 
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Jim's comments were good and not unexpected.  I think we all will agree the Speed UTV is a production race car.  Being able to set up the shocks specifically for the desert is a huge bonus.   

I think electronic shocks are the future.  Look how different the first generation dynamic set up is from Polaris versus what you get in the Pro R (individual control of rebound and compression)  I have ridden in a Turbo S that had springs and new valving.  It was night and day difference in what you feel in the different settings. 

Have you noticed several more trophy truck racers are switching to the Fox electronic shocks?  Andy McMillin and Bryce have switched over.  I believe Lofton has been running them as well.  

Todd is a super successful business person.  He has the financial knowledge on how to get it done.  Without Todd I do not think RG gets the Speed UTV beyond merely a concept.  Todd has a marketing company and his deal he made with Tonka many years ago has made him a lot of money.   

I think Covid saved them in buying them more time to develop the car.   Their biggest hurdle is going to be supply issues once they ramp up production beyond the initial 50 cars.  The next hurdle will be making sure the dealers can deal with warranty issues and have access to parts/accessories.  

The people that got those earlier deposits and locked in pricing are getting the deal of the century.   

Once the dealers get their supply the price mark up is going to be huge.  

 
I did not realize Beaver owns Parker Ford. When I hear Parker Ford I think of Manny Esquerra.

 
When I was considering a deposit the price was $28k and change that was May 2020 and they were only in the 1200 master #s. Price went up three times after that, so yeah steal of a deal now...

I would have never bought the Wildcat 4X they showed at the SSSS 2019, but the changes they made after and then the El Diablo had me on the edge.

 
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Fullthrottleguy said:
I would not argue with any of what Jim said -  

The bigger question everyone wants to ignore  is whether or not that experience can practically be translated into a production vehicle that is profitable ... thats still to be seen..

The more  "game changer" something is, the less it is likely to profitable at same selling price of a compromised  "cost engineered" product like Canned Ham or RZR  The reason those cars have so much plastic and thinner materials is a "compromised design"  . Its not a bad thing all around, its a practical thing, Like cloth interior vs Leather  on compact cars...  

I honestly have not seen many if any on the SPEED - which is great  for the user in the short term, not so great for the long term stability/profitability of a company. I doubt the first 500 cars make RG any profit unless there is huge price increase  - Break even would be a lofty goal FWIW
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I agree with everything you posted, just want to point out that in a street car, the difference between cloth vs leather interior doesn't impact the drivability of the vehicle, or the handling or strength of the suspension or strength of the chassis.

However, all of the cost cutting decisions Polaris and CanAm have made directly affected the vehicles safety in a wreck and their longevity. If I order a new car, I can opt for the leather interior or cloth, but with the current crop of UTVs, I would need to go aftermarket to fix all of the shortcomings. That's why RG posted the pic of the $73,000 CanAm that was outfitted with all of the strengtheners and brackets, etc. 

Also, when Justin Smith was asked what it cost to make a UTV race vehicle, he listed off all of the parts needing replacement on a Rzr or X3 and it was pretty much every little thing and it totaled up to $130k - $150k. When he was asked about the Speed, he said he hasn't seen one in person, but what he saw on video led him to believe some minor welding, window nets, a few other minor things and one could take it racing.

I don't know how Speed is going to make a profit at this rate of inflation and the preproduction sale prices, but he's definitely going to have to raise prices on future orders to stay in business.

 
NIKAL said:
While I agree the profits on the cars that were purchased at the first price offering might not be making as much profit as first calculated. I don’t see them taking a loss, and the loss of profit is not because of mismanagement. It’s because of shortages, and the current market & inflation. No one could have seen this coming, and we know it’s not sustainable. Every business in this global economy is feeling this. Give Speed credit they have stood by the pricing people signed up at. Rivian electric vehicles tried to increase customers pricing and what happened is customers started cancelling orders. They had so many cancellations it was going to kill the company, so they backtracked and kept pre order pricing the same. 
 

Also I think less then 5K of the 12-15K cars ordered by customers or dealers was based on the original pricing offer. There have been several price increases since the original offering. The 4 seat LE has increased the price $6500 from the first intro price of $32K. Remember dealers will get these cars for less then the first buyers are paying, so Todd must be confident in their direct to consumer pricing. 

A few other things to consider that makes this venture different then some of these other products like Segway that have come & gone. A lot of these start ups now a days start selling off percentages of the company for money to start up or keep going, Think of Shark Tank where they sell 25% of their company for cash flow. But what happens if they sell so much of the company then there is no longer any value left. Robby & Todd own Speed UTV and yes they have bank loans, but my understanding is they do not have outside investors. Because of this I think Todd & Robby could see making a lower profit and still being successful. Polaris & BRP are traded companies with boards and shareholders that need to make a profit. They have to answer to these people quarterly. So they have to have greater overall profits and thinner margins to keep those investors happy.  If Polaris needs to have a 35% percent profit on vehicles and 45% on parts then Speed might be able to do it for 25% & 35%. (These % are just examples) I won’t say who told me, but it was said Speeds engineering costs are less then 1/10th of what the other manufactures spend to build an equal product. 
 

Something else to think about. Both Robby & Todd have been very successful in their other ventures, so they know how to run businesses. Without going through them all. One I found interesting was Todd & Dragonfire Racing. It was a off road race shop that started building Rhino parts. Within 3 years that company went from selling parts direct to consumers, to selling to dealerships to working with all the OEM’s directly. Todd said they went from $0 to $20 million in 3 years. In an interview Todd talked about being the first to create the concept for dealers to put his cages, seats & seat belts on new showroom cars and sell them pre built. Customers would pay the extra $3K and roll it into the loan. If bought separate they could not put it in the loan, so most would pay the premium. Dealers saw greeter sales, higher profits and that’s how the OEM’s started talking with Todd & Dragon Fire. Eventually Motorsports Marketing Group bought the company from him.

Both Robby & Todd have allot of experience in the UTV industry. Todd has literally worked with all the OEM’s, including John Deere at one point. Both have been involved in manufacturing and 3rd party suppliers too. Unlike allot of start ups or inventors who come up with a great idea, but don’t know how to build or run a business. These guys do. I think they will be ok and like everyone including you and me, we all just have to weather this economic storm we are in. 
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As I've said before, Speed UTV doesn't have the multiple layers of worthless executives and bean counters that add tons of cost to the project but no real value. Canam and Polaris probably have the usual amount of corporate bloat and bodies holding down chairs as the rest of corporate America.

 
Dune-Track-N said:
When I was considering a deposit the price was $28k and change that was May 2020 and they were only in the 1200 master #s. Price went up three times after that, so yeah steal of a deal now...

I would have never bought the Wildcat 4X they showed at the SSSS 2019, but the changes they made after and then the El Diablo had me on the edge.
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That’s my exact thoughts it’s not what they showed in  2019 that would’ve tickled me it’s what they’ve come out with now and they took time to do it and get it right and be very open about it in their weekly presentations. All that is why I put a deposit down a couple months ago. Also would never want to be at the beginning of the line.

 
@onanysunday I know there is a Speed UTV Owners Facebook for those that have cars ordered. I don’t have Facebook but my son does and when he comes around he shows me some of the spots that early buyers are selling. If your cousin really wants one I’m sure he can find someone selling a early spot in line for a reasonable price/mark up. Just a thought. 

 
jginsandiego said:
That’s my exact thoughts it’s not what they showed in  2019 that would’ve tickled me it’s what they’ve come out with now and they took time to do it and get it right and be very open about it in their weekly presentations. All that is why I put a deposit down a couple months ago. Also would never want to be at the beginning of the line.
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What??? I love being an early adopter!

I've worn out at least 3 Betamax machines then switched to VHS, I still have a Nakamichi cassette deck, but finally gave up on cassettes, I have a Laserdisc player, but no laserdiscs, I was the first to get a CD player (when there were only 5 discs on the rack) and still have hundreds of CDs gathering dust. I bought the first yr Duramax and now 3 engines later, I think they have the injector thing sorted out, at my expense. I bought the Wildcat 1000, SN 89 and it still leaks oil like a champ. Right after I gave away my huge record collection in plastic sleeves and my Bang &Olufsen turntable with the lightest cartridge made by man, the world has decided that records are cool again and my buddy to whom I gave the record collection and the turntable, somehow enraged his wife and she took a sledgehammer and smashed all of it to bits. These are the kinds of decisions I've made.

Now I'm getting one of the Speed UTVs. What could possibly go wrong?

:lol:

 
NIKAL said:
While I agree the profits on the cars that were purchased at the first price offering might not be making as much profit as first calculated. I don’t see them taking a loss, and the loss of profit is not because of mismanagement. It’s because of shortages, and the current market & inflation. No one could have seen this coming, and we know it’s not sustainable. Every business in this global economy is feeling this. Give Speed credit they have stood by the pricing people signed up at. Rivian electric vehicles tried to increase customers pricing and what happened is customers started cancelling orders. They had so many cancellations it was going to kill the company, so they backtracked and kept pre order pricing the same. 
 

Also I think less then 5K of the 12-15K cars ordered by customers or dealers was based on the original pricing offer. There have been several price increases since the original offering. The 4 seat LE has increased the price $6500 from the first intro price of $32K. Remember dealers will get these cars for less then the first buyers are paying, so Todd must be confident in their direct to consumer pricing. 

A few other things to consider that makes this venture different then some of these other products like Segway that have come & gone. A lot of these start ups now a days start selling off percentages of the company for money to start up or keep going, Think of Shark Tank where they sell 25% of their company for cash flow. But what happens if they sell so much of the company then there is no longer any value left. Robby & Todd own Speed UTV and yes they have bank loans, but my understanding is they do not have outside investors. Because of this I think Todd & Robby could see making a lower profit and still being successful. Polaris & BRP are traded companies with boards and shareholders that need to make a profit. They have to answer to these people quarterly. So they have to have greater overall profits and thinner margins to keep those investors happy.  If Polaris needs to have a 35% percent profit on vehicles and 45% on parts then Speed might be able to do it for 25% & 35%. (These % are just examples) I won’t say who told me, but it was said Speeds engineering costs are less then 1/10th of what the other manufactures spend to build an equal product. 
 

Something else to think about. Both Robby & Todd have been very successful in their other ventures, so they know how to run businesses. Without going through them all. One I found interesting was Todd & Dragonfire Racing. It was a off road race shop that started building Rhino parts. Within 3 years that company went from selling parts direct to consumers, to selling to dealerships to working with all the OEM’s directly. Todd said they went from $0 to $20 million in 3 years. In an interview Todd talked about being the first to create the concept for dealers to put his cages, seats & seat belts on new showroom cars and sell them pre built. Customers would pay the extra $3K and roll it into the loan. If bought separate they could not put it in the loan, so most would pay the premium. Dealers saw greeter sales, higher profits and that’s how the OEM’s started talking with Todd & Dragon Fire. Eventually Motorsports Marketing Group bought the company from him.

Both Robby & Todd have allot of experience in the UTV industry. Todd has literally worked with all the OEM’s, including John Deere at one point. Both have been involved in manufacturing and 3rd party suppliers too. Unlike allot of start ups or inventors who come up with a great idea, but don’t know how to build or run a business. These guys do. I think they will be ok and like everyone including you and me, we all just have to weather this economic storm we are in. 
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You are making ALOT of assumptions that from my experience building companies and products just don't pan out.  An Accessories company does not have the same level engineering, permits, regulations, legal, and required overhead that a US based UTV manufacturer has. 

We won't know for a while, but I'll bet you a cold one in dunes that I am right. 

And @LOTD  thinks that Polaris and the Canned Ham partner company BRP (Canadian) have a lot of executive overhead and stupid people running the company... I think he would be surprised how lean they really are when you consider the volume those guys have to deal with. You actually need high powered over paid executives to get certain things external to the company done, like financial transactions, government regulators, banks, Investors, shareholders, and as sad as this is the Pedigree and Resume has to include MBA, 20 years CEO, CFO and or COO of multi Billion dollar company to get respect.  You and I might respect 40 years racing experience and took a Startup from 0 to $100m sales - that not mice-nuts to bankers at the level Speed wants to play at.

I am not saying there is not "fat" in those companies, there always is.  But, there is a lot to get done running a professional organization the Fiduciary responsibility alone means you hire $2,000 an hour accountants.   Outside the financial, sales marketing and of course Ops areas, I will bet the technical documentation the big three UTV makers supply to the dealers for each new car is literally 10 persons work for 6 months.  I have experience working with one of the major car companies and while their volumes are higher  all the same things are needed.  Supply chain is way more than Outsourcing the build to someone.  Managing components is a huge effort, just the supplier, the secondary alternative suppliers, all the part numbers and prices and changes to prints, instructions for replacement of components, its overwhelming

Fact matter ...

Accessory manufacturers have it easy - thats apples and oranges. This is near a $1B valuation company right away if RG does it right - thats huge scale.

Lets put it all in perspective ...  

CAN AM's parent company is a $6B company with 120,000+ employees  - 50% of the revenue comes from the US with over $700M coming from UTV sales in 2020 about $500M of that is the US .  the Industry is growing at a 5.5% CAGR so ... its getting bigger for everyone.

If Speed does 15,000 Cars in year 1  at and average of $35,000 per car (that may or may not be high thats'  $525M in sales  thats bigger than CAN AM's sales! Of course that top line revenue not profit.

Thats means out of the gate SPEED is Bigger the CAN AM Off Road ....

Let that soak in .... that would be amazing....

 BUT

You are not doing that scale with a handful of people ...  just training up the people to manage the outsourcing "right"  takes a couple years ... American industry already is facing Huge problems with this given Gen Z workers have average Tenures of 18 months compared to Millennial's and Boomers which are closer to 5-7 years.  We discuss this a lot in my CEO roundtable meetings, this is a huge problem for the country going forward.  They don't stay on the job long enough to learn how to be good at it and they like to move on and do "something else"

At Speed, There is only one RG and one Todd, and I don't see them hiring away top people from any of the good UTV companies, well at least its not in the industry rags or really talked about.  , Although I am certain RG know a few of those people having been "a consultant" and "accessory supplier" to them... and could get a few high level exec's to defect -  but this has to be done sooner rather tha  later - maybe he just does not have the funding or is too headstrong... I have no idea.

For RG noit hiring these people now is still outside looking in for them (and for me I admit)

Another telling fact is RG has said he thought he was gonna build 500 cars... and that would be a lot the first year ...He was surprised by the "success"

How you react to that success is telling as well.

An experienced  CEO of a company that ran other large org's when the "big numbers" hit would have built a team of industry experts to handle the growth  Just Like Elon Musk did ... Love or Hate Musk, the Man knows how to get Sh&t done... His hiring record pushed out some early people but he never missed a beat on GTM  (go to Market)  His model is a good one to follow 

I see a Bunch of "Joyner" like companies come and go - none have 1/10 the volume RG has already attracted. They all get it wrong, partially its just crap product, but mainly it's lack of support and infrastructure.  when you have 15,000 users out there you will get calls, warranty, issues, bad debt. law suits, etc.  

Its way more than just saying "anyone that disses' the company on social media or posts a picture of the bad door fit of crappy welds  gets their reservation number cancelled     or can never buy a car?  Can you see Can Am doing that??? No they would be sued, their CEO canned and all new management in place.    I have seen at least 50 Meme's of Canned Ham's Lawn darted  ... I have not heard BRP issue a statement they are hunting down the posters and barring them from buying cars.  This is just a crossing the Chasm from start up to professional org.

 I am sure RG is trying and confident, but given the failures of others before him and Todd, in companies  that had far more big company experience .. this is not as easy as you think it is ...

The deck is stacked against them.   His suppliers may be behind him, but they are business people and I do not believe he will make any money on at least the first years production  - no way.

He has a good flooring company helping with the cashflow on deposits  = but flooring costs money - if you have not dealt with that before think of it like paying that 3% credit card fee, bigger hit on the profit or lack of ...

Even successful start ups take years to break even.  If he ramps fast enough and has enough dry powder (working capital) to carry him through I can see a multiple $B cap in a few years... but he should have a good person doing the testing he is doing (lots of racers would it for free)  and he should be raising money - he is a good sales guy ....

Maybe he will raise a Ton of cash - and I hope he does - then Speed's future is secured.  I am not a smart person, but smart people tell me they "never" use their own money.  They say raise as much powder as they can when the brand is hot - the money is cheap, and you can always give it back if you don't need it,  but if you need it when you don't have it, it costs you lots of money...

Regarding Rivian

They are in fine shape .... they took down $10.7B in capital over the last 4 years YES 10.7 BILLION  = they got $2.5B  from Amazon, Ford and a consortium of 10 VC's and they pledged another $2B if the company needs it ... just last in October year.  They are burning cash with no product shipping (Like Robbie is) but they have lots of cash...

That scale is almost inconceivable compared to what SPEED has right now ....

They don't any sales for 3+ years  and they will be OK  - although the management will get "etch-a-sketched" before then  they are pretty safe not to "Tank" as you said. Some pretty smart people are not flushing 10B+ down the drain because a few orders got cancelled...

Don't get me wrong I have so much respect for the RG and TR - those guys are racers, businessmen and RG was always nice to me. But this is a Huge endeavor it's not rainbows and sunshine, more like blood letting before its all over ...

 
Fullthrottleguy said:
You are making ALOT of assumptions that from my experience building companies and products just don't pan out.  An Accessories company does not have the same level engineering, permits, regulations, legal, and required overhead that a US based UTV manufacturer has. 

We won't know for a while, but I'll bet you a cold one in dunes that I am right. 

And @LOTD  thinks that Polaris and the Canned Ham partner company BRP (Canadian) have a lot of executive overhead and stupid people running the company... I think he would be surprised how lean they really are when you consider the volume those guys have to deal with. You actually need high powered over paid executives to get certain things external to the company done, like financial transactions, government regulators, banks, Investors, shareholders, and as sad as this is the Pedigree and Resume has to include MBA, 20 years CEO, CFO and or COO of multi Billion dollar company to get respect.  You and I might respect 40 years racing experience and took a Startup from 0 to $100m sales - that not mice-nuts to bankers at the level Speed wants to play at.

I am not saying there is not "fat" in those companies, there always is.  But, there is a lot to get done running a professional organization the Fiduciary responsibility alone means you hire $2,000 an hour accountants.   Outside the financial, sales marketing and of course Ops areas, I will bet the technical documentation the big three UTV makers supply to the dealers for each new car is literally 10 persons work for 6 months.  I have experience working with one of the major car companies and while their volumes are higher  all the same things are needed.  Supply chain is way more than Outsourcing the build to someone.  Managing components is a huge effort, just the supplier, the secondary alternative suppliers, all the part numbers and prices and changes to prints, instructions for replacement of components, its overwhelming

Fact matter ...

Accessory manufacturers have it easy - thats apples and oranges. This is near a $1B valuation company right away if RG does it right - thats huge scale.

Lets put it all in perspective ...  

CAN AM's parent company is a $6B company with 120,000+ employees  - 50% of the revenue comes from the US with over $700M coming from UTV sales in 2020 about $500M of that is the US .  the Industry is growing at a 5.5% CAGR so ... its getting bigger for everyone.

If Speed does 15,000 Cars in year 1  at and average of $35,000 per car (that may or may not be high thats'  $525M in sales  thats bigger than CAN AM's sales! Of course that top line revenue not profit.

Thats means out of the gate SPEED is Bigger the CAN AM Off Road ....

Let that soak in .... that would be amazing....

 BUT

You are not doing that scale with a handful of people ...  just training up the people to manage the outsourcing "right"  takes a couple years ... American industry already is facing Huge problems with this given Gen Z workers have average Tenures of 18 months compared to Millennial's and Boomers which are closer to 5-7 years.  We discuss this a lot in my CEO roundtable meetings, this is a huge problem for the country going forward.  They don't stay on the job long enough to learn how to be good at it and they like to move on and do "something else"

At Speed, There is only one RG and one Todd, and I don't see them hiring away top people from any of the good UTV companies, well at least its not in the industry rags or really talked about.  , Although I am certain RG know a few of those people having been "a consultant" and "accessory supplier" to them... and could get a few high level exec's to defect -  but this has to be done sooner rather tha  later - maybe he just does not have the funding or is too headstrong... I have no idea.

For RG noit hiring these people now is still outside looking in for them (and for me I admit)

Another telling fact is RG has said he thought he was gonna build 500 cars... and that would be a lot the first year ...He was surprised by the "success"

How you react to that success is telling as well.

An experienced  CEO of a company that ran other large org's when the "big numbers" hit would have built a team of industry experts to handle the growth  Just Like Elon Musk did ... Love or Hate Musk, the Man knows how to get Sh&t done... His hiring record pushed out some early people but he never missed a beat on GTM  (go to Market)  His model is a good one to follow 

I see a Bunch of "Joyner" like companies come and go - none have 1/10 the volume RG has already attracted. They all get it wrong, partially its just crap product, but mainly it's lack of support and infrastructure.  when you have 15,000 users out there you will get calls, warranty, issues, bad debt. law suits, etc.  

Its way more than just saying "anyone that disses' the company on social media or posts a picture of the bad door fit of crappy welds  gets their reservation number cancelled     or can never buy a car?  Can you see Can Am doing that??? No they would be sued, their CEO canned and all new management in place.    I have seen at least 50 Meme's of Canned Ham's Lawn darted  ... I have not heard BRP issue a statement they are hunting down the posters and barring them from buying cars.  This is just a crossing the Chasm from start up to professional org.

 I am sure RG is trying and confident, but given the failures of others before him and Todd, in companies  that had far more big company experience .. this is not as easy as you think it is ...

The deck is stacked against them.   His suppliers may be behind him, but they are business people and I do not believe he will make any money on at least the first years production  - no way.

He has a good flooring company helping with the cashflow on deposits  = but flooring costs money - if you have not dealt with that before think of it like paying that 3% credit card fee, bigger hit on the profit or lack of ...

Even successful start ups take years to break even.  If he ramps fast enough and has enough dry powder (working capital) to carry him through I can see a multiple $B cap in a few years... but he should have a good person doing the testing he is doing (lots of racers would it for free)  and he should be raising money - he is a good sales guy ....

Maybe he will raise a Ton of cash - and I hope he does - then Speed's future is secured.  I am not a smart person, but smart people tell me they "never" use their own money.  They say raise as much powder as they can when the brand is hot - the money is cheap, and you can always give it back if you don't need it,  but if you need it when you don't have it, it costs you lots of money...

Regarding Rivian

They are in fine shape .... they took down $10.7B in capital over the last 4 years YES 10.7 BILLION  = they got $2.5B  from Amazon, Ford and a consortium of 10 VC's and they pledged another $2B if the company needs it ... just last in October year.  They are burning cash with no product shipping (Like Robbie is) but they have lots of cash...

That scale is almost inconceivable compared to what SPEED has right now ....

They don't any sales for 3+ years  and they will be OK  - although the management will get "etch-a-sketched" before then  they are pretty safe not to "Tank" as you said. Some pretty smart people are not flushing 10B+ down the drain because a few orders got cancelled...

Don't get me wrong I have so much respect for the RG and TR - those guys are racers, businessmen and RG was always nice to me. But this is a Huge endeavor it's not rainbows and sunshine, more like blood letting before its all over ...
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I can't find anything wrong with anything you posted. I have a BS in Bus Admin, so I'm familiar with everything you mentioned, but I haven't done any of the things you have in the business world.

All I can say is - what you've laid out is how it's traditionally done. Yet somehow, RG and a small crew of dedicated guys have managed to design all of this, got vendors to build their parts, they're using their CAD drawings to make exploded views for the parts catalogs and parts lists for their dealers and customers to use, setup the assy line, reached out to experts for engine design, ECU tuning, wiring, etc.

I don't know how successful they'll be financially, especially if they don't raise prices with this ridiculous rate of inflation we have. In the back of my mind a loud voice says you're right, but there's a little voice in me that feels RG is an "overcome and adapt" kind of guy and he's willing to listen to others, so if he needs to raise prices to stay in business or hire an experienced CEO and COO to run things if it gets too big for him, that's what he'll do. I think they've already accomplished far more than most people would have. The people he has working for him are all wearing multiple hats, doing a lot of unconventional things like showing up at the SSSS and using social media instead of hiring an advertising agency and PR firm, etc.

As for RG's outburst about sh1t talkers on the net, I respect him more for it, despite how others feel. I also liked it when Trump said Hillary should be in jail and when Elon Musk tweeted to Bernie Sanders, "I didn't know you were still alive!"

:lol:

I speak my mind and I find it refreshing when people in the spotlight do so as well.

In summary, everything I learned in college and your experience in the business world says you're right, but...

if anyone can adapt and overcome, beating the odds, I think RG and TR will pull this off and make the right decisions going forward, even if it means they hire a CEO, COO and CFO to handle things if it gets too big.

 
Lord of the Dunes said:
I can't find anything wrong with anything you posted. I have a BS in Bus Admin, so I'm familiar with everything you mentioned, but I haven't done any of the things you have in the business world.

All I can say is - what you've laid out is how it's traditionally done. Yet somehow, RG and a small crew of dedicated guys have managed to design all of this, got vendors to build their parts, they're using their CAD drawings to make exploded views for the parts catalogs and parts lists for their dealers and customers to use, setup the assy line, reached out to experts for engine design, ECU tuning, wiring, etc.

I don't know how successful they'll be financially, especially if they don't raise prices with this ridiculous rate of inflation we have. In the back of my mind a loud voice says you're right, but there's a little voice in me that feels RG is an "overcome and adapt" kind of guy and he's willing to listen to others, so if he needs to raise prices to stay in business or hire an experienced CEO and COO to run things if it gets too big for him, that's what he'll do. I think they've already accomplished far more than most people would have. The people he has working for him are all wearing multiple hats, doing a lot of unconventional things like showing up at the SSSS and using social media instead of hiring an advertising agency and PR firm, etc.

As for RG's outburst about sh1t talkers on the net, I respect him more for it, despite how others feel. I also liked it when Trump said Hillary should be in jail and when Elon Musk tweeted to Bernie Sanders, "I didn't know you were still alive!"

:lol:

I speak my mind and I find it refreshing when people in the spotlight do so as well.

In summary, everything I learned in college and your experience in the business world says you're right, but...

if anyone can adapt and overcome, beating the odds, I think RG and TR will pull this off and make the right decisions going forward, even if it means they hire a CEO, COO and CFO to handle things if it gets too big.
Click to expand...
Like you, I like to dream in color, and yeah I want them to succeed if for no other selfish reasdon than to have a SPEED UTV...

Here is how I see it  .... Startups are often a "rag-tag" bunch of overachievers and you can point to a few success stories born just like that ...

There was this "fruit" company in Cupertino that started out in a garage by two guys,   that took off like a rocket ....they even flew a Pirate flag over their first building  and were competing against IBM , thats Apple's story ...

And the same thing could happen with Speed ,,,,But its not on that track

for 7 years I worked directly for SJ and while there are a lot of similarities and differences between him and RG or TR, one thing SJ knew was how to surround himself with smart people and people who knew what they were doing. And believe me you never said no when SJ called you to hire you He did not alway hire "suits" and in fact he tried that once and it did not work out, but he hired superstars  and while Apple had their ups ands downs .. innovative and great people got them to where they are now - the most valuable company in the world

I remember when SJ hired Tim  C and he was telling us about why he hired him - and that is a long story.  I worked on the switch to Intel with Tim, we have a 5 person steering team, and that experience taught me why he choose him. 

I guess for me I just don't see Speed building that team early enough to "win big"

I would like to believe RG and team could pull something like that off... If they want to they better getting going on that path 

 
so why is the diablo gonna be faster? Weight and can we take the speed limiter off? I assume that will be in the programming.

 
I thought it was kind of interesting he mentioned the boost reference hose fell off and it suddenly started making more power on pump gas due to extra boost. Of course I would never recommend anyone do that on their own Speed UTV.

However, one of the first things I did on my Duramax was put boost/EGT gauges on it and I was disappointed to see the wastegate opening at about 18 psi and full boost was only 20 psi. I was also alarmed to see how high the stock programming would let the EGTs climb to if you lugged it under load in higher gears. I pulled the boost hose off of the wastegate and plugged it, then added a tuner for a little more fuel. The extra boost kept the EGTs a lot cooler and really helped burn all of the extra fuel while towing, really woke it up at 30 - 34 psi. Of course diesels are the opposite of gassers, if one were to increase boost it could lead to a lean condition under load, not a good thing.

It just reminded me how much a little extra boost really woke up my truck. I'm glad to see they didn't hurt the engine (that they know of.)

 
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