Speed UTV

Fullthrottleguy said:
I think you make a good point here and something that is very common in nearly every supplier relationship. 

Very often suppliers fall in love with the products they building parts for, and they want to influence the next generation product. Because they are innovators they want the product to be better  then the rest.  They hardly ever do what the CFO and CEO of the other company is doing  - analysis such as margin on sales, SWOT analysis (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and Threats) from their competitors  - they sit around and dream about what could be...  Then the light goes on and they say " If they won't let us build it, we'll just build it ourselves, we are already doing most of it anyway"  the rest is EASY... That's when all the "ideas" about what parts to use and who knows who that makes what  ... happen.  And before you know you talked yourself into being a manufacturer.

  I know because I have been there - more than once.  It really is "the school of hard knocks" and I am sure RG and team are there.  Sometimes you come out the other end OK, sometimes its "Fargo" as we call it  (you go through the wood chipper).  Either way, the "spend"  eventually becomes a concern, you can only burn so much or your own and your investors cash to where you either put out a product, or you walk away.  I know of one company that had $150M invested, announced they were shipping their product, and shut the doors the next day...  I doubt thats the case  here, but this long road still has some  steep inclines ...  LOTS of pressure come off when the first units get out the door, and lots of work starts as soon as the first reports of issues  come in.   Either way it's  a serious learning experience and the next venture benefits from it.  I believe RG and Team have the drive and EGO to at least get over the next hill and around the first bend which is shipping units. 

Those of you who are old enough to remember "Ginger"   this whole 100+ pages reminds me of the discussions we had abiout it when I was at Apple - I hope this turns out better - I knew people who jumped ship at Apple to work on the project - they were true believers 

Everyone was hyped about this transportation device that was revolutionize the transportation industry 

From Wikipedia:

Prior to its introduction, a news report about a proposal for a book about the invention, development, and financing led to speculation about the device...

Well.. It was the Segway stand up self balancing scooter  and it basically sucked  -  it was cool to watch in Mall Cop though .....Company ended up being sold to the Chinese for $1  after paying off nearly $80M of Segways  debt ....
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Reminds me of Cannondale Motorcycle and Atv Division taking out the whole company.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/amp/biggest-disaster-in-motocross-history-the-story-behind-the-cannondale/

 
Big_Daddy_Jp said:
It’s not that I do t u dear stand where it can be used. I do understand where it could be necessary. My bet is the people that bought this car to race king of hammers would be less than 1% of the buyers. In fact I would bet that 95% or more bought this as a recreational vehicle where the sequential isn’t needed. That was my point.
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Copy.

The sequential shifting ability of the gearbox is there if you choose to use it. If not, throw it in 2nd and let it rip.

 
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Fullthrottleguy said:
Thats a great read - everyone should read that story ... But I Hope thats not the case here.  I find it interesting and I do remember all the rave press they got in early reviews and  I wanted one...
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I enjoyed reading that as well. Remember the bike but never heard the story. 80 million!!  Damn

 
Sean@Weddle said:
Copy.

The sequential shifting ability of the gearbox is there if you choose to use it. If not, throw it in 2nd and let it rip.
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Yes the experienced duner will do that. But.... 

What if you forget that it was in 3rd and then jump on from a dead stop. Or leave it in 1st and keep it at WOT through the dunes. 
I like your idea of a lock out. 

 
NIKAL said:
Your making this harder then it needs to be. If you forget? The gear selection is shown right on the dash, so just look if your unsure what gear your in. But if you forget and you have it in 3rd “OD”and take off from a dead stop it will go. It’s just going to be a little sluggish and might harder on the clutch & maybe slip a belt, but it will still go. Robby said it’s not recommended but you could. 
 

And if you leave it in 1st or “Low” and go WOT as you describe it. It’s going to be just like any Polaris or Can Am. It’s going to go 35-40mph and be screaming. But unlike a Polaris or Can Am, if you wanted to shift into 2nd “High” gear, you can without coming to a complete stop first like a Polaris or Can Am. 
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Ok. That makes sense. 
I’m just a little concerned about the “damage “ that Sean mentioned in earlier posts. 

 
NIKAL said:
I think the concern Sean is talking about is the fact that to shift with Dog gears you need to learn how to shift at the right RPM for smoother shifts. 

But just to be clear there is no reason to need to shift. Just put it in 2nd/High and go! 

It’s going to be like shifting a car or learning to shift a buggy trans. It takes a little to learn and get that feel, but once you have that feel it’s going to be like riding a bike. You just know how to do it. 
 

BTW I once watched a stupid guy try to shift his RZR from low to high without stopping. Guess what? He busted up his trans. Then he claims to do it all the time! WTF? Was told by a dealer they see that all the time, where people don’t stop or just slow down before shifting. So stupid people brake Polaris by not stopping & shifting. Speeds going to have some failures due to stupid people just like Polaris & Can Am does. 
 
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So in your post you cleared up two things for me. First, it seems people are making the trans a huge selling point for Speed. Uninformed people such as Fog, won’t know that it’s not needed. Yet if you tell everyone to just leave it in 2nd and rip it, than everyone else will bash that it isn’t any different than a Polaris or CanAm! The point I was making is more than likely, almost all people buying the speed will be for recreational purposes and the sequential trans won’t be needed thus making it a weak sales pitch.

Then we come to the second point. I usually pride myself in trying to see both sides of everything before I open my mouth. It seems I have failed on this subject! Although my thought process of the sequential is still the same, I didn’t factor in Joe public that can’t drive worth a chit or even follow manufactures recommendations! If there are that many people out there that aren’t coming to a stop before shifting from low to high and trashing the gearboxes than the sequential is a GREAT idea! If you will excuse me, I have some crow to eat. Carry on!

 
Big_Daddy_Jp said:
So in your post you cleared up two things for me. First, it seems people are making the trans a huge selling point for Speed. Uninformed people such as Fog, won’t know that it’s not needed. Yet if you tell everyone to just leave it in 2nd and rip it, than everyone else will bash that it isn’t any different than a Polaris or CanAm! The point I was making is more than likely, almost all people buying the speed will be for recreational purposes and the sequential trans won’t be needed thus making it a weak sales pitch.

Then we come to the second point. I usually pride myself in trying to see both sides of everything before I open my mouth. It seems I have failed on this subject! Although my thought process of the sequential is still the same, I didn’t factor in Joe public that can’t drive worth a chit or even follow manufactures recommendations! If there are that many people out there that aren’t coming to a stop before shifting from low to high and trashing the gearboxes than the sequential is a GREAT idea! If you will excuse me, I have some crow to eat. Carry on!
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Not many try to shift on the fly with the current SXSs.  Those that do probably should not own one to begin with and probably also try shift on the fly their daily drivers.  LOL!

FOG is not uninformed he is just equating it to what he has in his sandcar, which I think many sandrail owners and desert car owners would think when they read sequential.   The correct way to advertise it is the ability to shift on the fly from high to low and low to high.  It would make it so people understand, but the word sequential shifter is a sexier term for sales. 

The selling point of the Speed UTV is the overall design and the value of the price for those that locked in the early pricing.   The value will not be there as much if you were to buy one today.  

The design looks great, but how it equates to real world application in the hands of the public remains to be seen.  At least RG was smart in setting the speed limiter to 85ish miles per hour, even though he posted a video of him doing 100mph on a hardpacked road with the hood piece flying off.  

 
DTA said:
Hammering on Speed offering a sequential when they actually offer a sequential is hilarious when in comparison other MFG advertise wheel travel which is unusable. 

I would call that nitpicking.

Whats funny is in reality if you wanted, yes you could take off in 1st, then shift to 2nd, then to 3rd. Just like a sequential. 

The option is there at your own risk, just like shifting a dirt bike without a clutch. 

I've never heard of anyone complaining about something being more capable than less.
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I am not hammering away.  It is just some don't understand it in a SXS, so just thought other terminology would work.  At least Speed is offering useful shifting with a car that is built for the desert.  Imagine if Yamaha actually build a SXS with good suspension and handling for the desert.  

Has RG mentioned if they have been running the E85 tune in Parker?

 
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As was discussed here previously, I think the issue for SOTF will be having the CVT between the crankshaft and the input shaft. Time will tell.

 
FOG said:
Yes the experienced duner will do that. But.... 

What if you forget that it was in 3rd and then jump on from a dead stop. Or leave it in 1st and keep it at WOT through the dunes. 
I like your idea of a lock out. 
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To specifically address your valid concern on leaving it in 3rd and coming to a dead stop:

In a typical sequential (or dog engagement) gearbox, you cannot generally shift into gear if the vehicle is not rolling. This is due to the dogs on the gears and selector slider being lined up "dog-on-dog", and physically preventing you from selecting the next gear until you roll the vehicle and allow the gears to rotate enough to allow selector slider/dogs to engage the gear. (Think trying to shift a dirtbike/quad into gear at a stop, and you have to roll a bit to get the shifter to click up into gear).

The Speed UTV gearbox has a newish idea built into the forks that will allow you to move the shifter into the gear you are trying to engage while the vehicle is stopped, even if the dogs on the gears are lined up. There is a spring mechanism that will load the fork into the gear once the gears rotate to let the dogs slip in and engage. You will be able to move the shifter into every gear at a stop, and once you start rolling, you might hear a clunk as the gears rotate and dogs are forced into the gear by the spring.

Polaris, Can-Am, and Arctic-Cat all use the same type of mechanism, although a bit more primitive and not as stout to allow for on-the-fly shifting. This is why you will occasionally shift into high gear, then hear a clunk once the secondary clutch turns the input shaft when you start rolling. That is the spring pushing the fork into gear once the gear rotates enough to let the dogs engage.

The specific type of damage that will most likely occur to the Speed UTV gearbox when people decide to shift them, will be due to the lack of know how and coordination of preloading the shift lever, then lifting off the throttle and quickly pulling the shift lever into the next gear. The people who will lazily pull the shift lever or don't have the hand/foot coordination to lift and shift at the same time will be causing damage to the dogs. It's not so much the proper RPM that you shift at, but how you prepare to shift, lift off the throttle, and yank on the shift lever in less than .5 seconds. 

Fun quick story: At one of the Lucas Oil races working on RJ's Pro4 truck we swapped out the Albins trans for some different ratio's. Before firing the truck, we just grabbed the shift lever and got through all 6 gears without turning anything. Just dumb luck that all 6 gears were lined up in a way that allowed for this. Went out and RJ won that race.

 
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