Speed UTV

[rivermobster]

While I agree Speed has been less then honest with timelines. How or what have they cheated? And what have they stole? Those are some very strong accusations, which if founded are legit. But to just say them without merit is pretty unfair too.


When you say “them” I assume you’re talking about both Robby & Todd? What about his or their “entire history of business” causes you to not support the brand? And do you really think they are getting a pass? I kinda feel it’s the opposite, because they are who they are more scrutiny has been put on them since day one.

I’m more then happy to share my thoughts, as of today, but I kinda want to understand yours as I know this is not something new and you and many more on this form has said this same thing for years. So I’m just trying to understand, and then I will share my thoughts & concerns with the brand.

Here's an example...

My good friend ordered one right away. Ordered just about Every option for it, that they had him pay for up front. So he has givin Speed 12k cash or something like that?

That was five years ago now.?

They won't refund his money or offer him anything other than lip service. And we all KNOW there is no way he can sell his spot.

Can you imagine any other company pulling this bullshit??? I sure can't. It's Fucking ridiculous, but I'm sure you, and others, will make some legit excuses for it.

So carry on with how great the car is. Go Speed!

 

[NIKAL]

Lie, cheat, and steal is an old saying, meaning they will do anything to get what they want. It's another name for lack of integrity. I could come up with several things that I feel are cheating and stealing, but it would be an opinion. I don't think it's an opinion to say some of his patents and going after other builders for 1980s technology might be cheating and stealing.



I'm talking about any company that RG is part of. And no, they are not getting a pass from a lot of folks, but they certainly are from his fan club.

I have to be honest. Your question kind of made my brain tweak... I feel like it's the same as a Democrat asking what has Joe Biden done wrong.
You've been around since the beginning, you've seen all the craziness going down. I feel like you're a smart enough person to see how what he's done could be taken the way I'm saying.

That being said, welcome back! You still need to buy me a beer for being the reason that I can't delete my posts!

I’m glad I made your brain tweak. That’s kinda the point. It’s easy to just say someone Lies, Cheats & Steals, or their past business history makes them shady. But when pressed to give examples of prior bad business or stealing, most have not been able to show real facts, it’s just opinion or they say, well it’s just a phrase.

That’s always been my issue. It’s like the fake news we hear about Trump, or the lies made up to fit a narrative or agenda. And the majority of the ones who make these claims are not involved with Speed. I’d bet 90% of the “Speed haters” make the majority of the noise have not ordered a Speed, and have zero intention to order a Speed. I’ve never understood why someone not interested in a product can be so disgruntled or spend so much time hating on it, when it does not affect them. I guess it’s just their way of being an internet bully and spewing their anger, or trying to hurt someone else. I notice they always have that friend who has one on order, and they feel bad for them. It’s just like Trump, His name angers people and they create this hate in their minds, yet they don’t know why, they just follow the sheep that was angry and screaming he’s threatening democracy! They don’t know even know what they means.

Now with this said I do have several issues with how Speed is handling some things. It’s more recent issues. Like I’m not happy how design flaw fixes become “aftermarket race parts” the customer has to buy, or how they will say it only affects 5% of the customers. Yes I get it’s a liability issue, Polaris & Can Am are the same way. I just found out what the other manufacturers will not discuss chassis or cage strength & tube thickness. It’s purely a liability thing. I did not know that. I guess it’s taboo in the industry to market it like Robby has.

My other concerns are the business infrastructure. I see many gaping holes and it’s not run like the other bigger brands. This includes lack of dealers, or backing out of dealerships, which had committed to carrying the product.

And lastly and most recently they have been standing firm in not refunding people money. Earlier this year I know people who got full refunds. Yes Speed stated at the very beginning the deposit was non refundable. But they have clearly breached the contract with multiple missed dates, plus for Californians I’m pretty sure they can’t keep or enforce a non refundable deposit? The next issue is now they are stating they will not refund on accessories, which is totally wrong as they were not non-refundable and again delivery dates and the sales pitch of urgency to purchase accessories was sold to the customer. Now both of these issues if challenged in a court or if the state attorneys office was to get complaints and chose to investigate. I’d bet the customer would win. In my honest opinion I think Speed should have enough confidence in their product to not worry about people requesting refunds, especially since we are on year 5. Why would they want a disgruntled customer buying their product and potentially talking bad about it, and potentially scaring new customers away? We already know they claim to be reselling cars sold at the entry price for todays MSRP price, so for Speed it should be a win, win situation.

 

[Rorschach]

We're not doing this again? Are we?

 

[Rockwood]

Stealing, to me, would be promising cars by X date, asking for deposits, then completely blowing that promise date out of the water. All while knowing full well the whole time there was absolutely no way in hell of making that timeline. Some might call it fraudulent. “Final production underway” in 2021…? Lulz. They’re barely out of beta testing in 2024.

Cheating, to me, would be setting up comparison videos where your vehicle will come out on top in a very specific circumstance because you’re focusing on a single negative design aspect (again: all designs have a flaw as there’s no way to optimize everything).

Lying, to me, would be saying you had CARB paperwork in hand.


I’m sure there’s more. I like the design of the vehicle overall. Execution leaves a lot to be desired, but that can be ironed out if there’s enough capital and patience from the user base.

I absolutely dislike the person who profits from it.


These are all my opinions. I’ve dealt with people like this in business before, and I’ve written them off entirely for far less.

 

[Rockwood]

Oh yeah, welcome back @NIKAL.

 

[NIKAL]

Oh yeah, welcome back @NIKAL.

You can thank the new management for that!

That being said, welcome back! You still need to buy me a beer for being the reason that I can't delete my posts!

Legendary!

I actually never deleted any posts, and there’s two sides to the story. But that’s in the past now with Dave running the show.

 

[SxS]

Yeah I'm not getting what the fuss is all about concerning Speed having watched this from afar for years.
The proposition was (hopefully) a cool new car for the price of a non-refundable deposit.
After this acceptance, you are basically a very willing, very long term, no turning back investor in more ways than one no differently than Kickstarter without the zero obligation updates.
I currently have $500 down on a car that I may never get back due to some innovative(?) marketing experiment/information blackout instituted immediately after launch, a manufacturing location about to be embroiled in an international trade war if someone wins office and a likely short-lived pricing lure not guaranteed by anyone complete with non-defined delivery costs to specific dealers in even one geographic region. Who do I have to blame here but myself for simply taking a chance and being more than willing to lose out?

First adaptors of anything willing to sacrifice to be first or even way down on the list should be required to consult with those who have regularly first adapted if anyone's feelings are hurt far too easily.
We will charge a healthy deposit and certainly not guarantee that you will receive absolutely anything in return for the consultation.

 

[SxS]

And lastly and most recently they have been standing firm in not refunding people money. Earlier this year I know people who got full refunds. Yes Speed stated at the very beginning the deposit was non refundable. But they have clearly breached the contract with multiple missed dates, plus for Californians I’m pretty sure they can’t keep or enforce a non refundable deposit?

Until someone comes out and is willing to state publicly that they received a full refund from SPEED at what pre-order date, on what serial number car and for what given reason by SPEED on paper then what are current owners/depositers expected to believe?
Why would I be tearing my hair out for what was it, $5K(?) over someone claiming anything without this info in hand?
Here's what I find even more ironic:
I can remember a much larger manufacturer releasing basically the largest turd in performance side by side history and then not apologizing one bit for unequally treating beta tester owners WORLDS differently afterwards with semi-apologetic financial gestures.
I would bet a steak dinner that many of these same SPEED first adaptors bitching now received that same small minority coddling yet were silent then for obvious reasons affecting fellow turd owners (again) negatively due to their selfish silence. See above and imagine that.

Here's the Merriam Webster definition:

nonrefundable

adjective​

non·re·fund·able ˌnän-ri-ˈfən-də-bəl

: not subject to refunding or being refunded

 

[Sand Shark]

Welcome back @NIKAL

If it is true they are not refunding money to people that is a big problem. I am talking about the ones that purchased accessories years ago when Speed inferred production was starting and cars were being delivered soon.

 

[rivermobster]

Welcome back @NIKAL

If it is true they are not refunding money to people that is a big problem. I am talking about the ones that purchased accessories years ago when Speed inferred production was starting and cars were being delivered soon.

I can tell you for a fact they are not refunding shit.

How could they?

It's already been spent elsewhere.

 

[AlpineFunco]

I can tell you for a fact they are not refunding shit.

How could they?

It's already been spent elsewhere.

Exactly. Demanding full payment for accessories upfront was simply a way to get money flowing to help finance startup costs.

 

[Mac]

Since this is still going strong, I'll repeat my stance under the new ownership.

I would never trust ANYTHING backed by RG nor give him a dime.

I have had several run ins with him and not single one was positive. Even when trying to help the guy, he was a douche. I don't care if he has the biggest Trump sign ever.

 

[SxS]

Welcome back @NIKAL

If it is true they are not refunding money to people that is a big problem. I am talking about the ones that purchased accessories years ago when Speed inferred production was starting and cars were being delivered soon.

So what is the difference between CFMOTO today (conversely a long established manufacturer) trying to sell accessories for the Z10 well before an order can even be placed for the car by a dealer or a firm delivery date announced to customers for 6+ months before even that?
Do I take responsibility for roll of the dice pre-ordering accessories for that car before anyone has ever even driven one off the floor...or do today's young folk feel a whole lot better putting down 10X or more non-refundable cash in the exact same manner that they did with their deposit to a company that has never produced anything...ever?

I'm starting to better understand the whole idea behind these participation trophies which have shaped so many generations:
Just as long as I participate (throw money at whatever regardless of the consequences) I should be rewarded in the end no matter how ridiculous the premise is to begin with.

I'll give you my theory (no charge):
There's a whole lot of wives out there who were somehow convinced by someone to put down God only knows how much money on this car despite non-refundable deposits being the catch.
A whole lot of husbands then convinced someone to put down even MORE money on accessories despite non-refundable deposits being the catch.

You want to piss off your wife?
Start whining about the company who (cough) 'stole' a good chunk of your family's disposable(?) income to a woman who knows full well that you 110% gambled it away not once but twice on a company never guaranteeing delivery on anything.

I don't believe for a second that today's women are that stupid.
I do believe that if they caught their husbands being that stupid that all hell would break loose (understandably).

 

[Sand Shark]

So what is the difference between CFMOTO today (conversely a long established manufacturer) trying to sell accessories for the Z10 well before an order can even be placed for the car by a dealer or a firm delivery date announced to customers for 6+ months before even that?
Do I take responsibility for roll of the dice pre-ordering accessories for that car before anyone has ever even driven one off the floor...or do today's young folk feel a whole lot better putting down 10X or more non-refundable cash in the exact same manner that they did with their deposit to a company that has never produced anything...ever?

I'm starting to better understand the whole idea behind these participation trophies which have shaped so many generations:
Just as long as I participate (throw money at whatever regardless of the consequences) I should be rewarded in the end no matter how ridiculous the premise is to begin with.

I'll give you my theory (no charge):
There's a whole lot of wives out there who were somehow convinced by someone to put down God only knows how much money on this car despite non-refundable deposits being the catch.
A whole lot of husbands then convinced someone to put down even MORE money on accessories despite non-refundable deposits being the catch.

You want to piss off your wife?
Start whining about the company who (cough) 'stole' a good chunk of your family's disposable(?) income to a woman who knows full well that you 110% gambled it away not once but twice on a company never guaranteeing delivery on anything.

I don't believe for a second that today's women are that stupid.
I do believe that if they caught their husbands being that stupid that all hell would break loose (understandably).

I was not aware CFmoto was selling accessories for the car that will be arriving at dealers by the end of the year. CFmoto has not asked for deposits or done weekly shows telling customers their cars are coming and they better pay for the accessories now.
CFmoto is not asking for any deposits, let alone "non-refundable". The big difference is CFmoto has been around for a very long time and has actually produced cars and is in partnership with the likes of Yamaha and KTM. They exude a little more confidence that they know what they are doing versus the shoot from the hip approach exhibited by Speed.

I have not doubt there are husbands that have some pissed off wives, but that pretty much goes with any purchase on a vehicle that is not a necessity.

When Speed did the whole accessory purchase thing there was nothing on that website about them being non-refundable, nor any mention of it in the those weekly informercials. The guise in which it was done has left some with a lot less cash and nothing to show for it.

 

[SxS]

I was not aware CFmoto was selling accessobunch ries for the car that will be arriving at dealers by the end of the year.

They had brochures with pricing but a few days after the invitation only release and I believe currently on their website as well.
What I am more interested in is where you have been definitively told that Z10s will be in dealer's hands by the end of the year.
If this is so, a whole bunch of dealers are either lying or being lied to from what phone calls that I have made and been told in no uncertain terms otherwise.

 

[SxS]

CFmoto is not asking for any deposits, let alone "non-refundable". The big difference is CFmoto has been around for a very long time and has actually produced cars and is in partnership with the likes of Yamaha and KTM. They exude a little more confidence that they know what they are doing versus the shoot from the hip approach exhibited by Speed.

That was my point.
You're coming back with the premise that you know full well (for a fact) that CFMOTO will have Z10s on showroom floors before the first of the year.
I am saying that I willingly risked $500 on a deposit given the fact that somebody is apparently telling both you and I (currently) entirely different stories involving a fairly long period of time well in to 2025. If something happens before now and then given CFMOTO's currently bizarre way of handling this, release, so be it.
SPEED made it much easier. They never promised anything given their non-refundable-buy-anything-you-may-want terms.
What is freaking out this primarily younger generation of buyers is that frankly many have always gotten everything that they have ever wanted or asked for no matter what they were told.
Welllllllllll...life sometimes doesn't always work out that way...and usually there isn't a larger than life obvious danger sign sitting right there in front of you reading: No refunds.

 

[Sand Shark]

They had brochures with pricing but a few days after the invitation only release and I believe currently on their website as well.
What I am more interested in is where you have been definitively told that Z10s will be in dealer's hands by the end of the year.
If this is so, a whole bunch of dealers are either lying or being lied to from what phone calls that I have made and been told in no uncertain terms otherwise.

That was mentioned at the Sand Show, but not officially confirmed. What is the timeline the dealers mentioned to you?

The bigger OEMS are normally good about getting newly released models to the dealers in a timely manner. Now if they are more concerned about this new model making a big splash back east or in the mid-west for the trail riders there is no rush to get the car to the dealers in winter time when not many are out on the trails in those areas.

 

[SxS]

When Speed did the whole accessory purchase thing there was nothing on that website about them being non-refundable, nor any mention of it in the those weekly informercials. The guise in which it was done has left some with a lot less cash and nothing to show for it.

Again, you're saying that Big Brother (or whoever) wasn't standing right there beside all these guys, holding their hands, saying:

"Uhhhhh, 'dude'....you haven't even got the car that they did not promise you given their no refund policy ...why in the heck are you now going 'all in' buying accessories for a car that you very well might not even own?..."

 

[SxS]

That was mentioned at the Sand Show, but not officially confirmed.

Yeah I'd like to know who they told to simply "mention" the all important/critical delivery date ...but to not necessarily "confirm" same in their "mentioning".
Now you know why I don't worry about that $500 given how this was apparently being played at really the 1st opportunity for us all to see this car.

What is the timeline the dealers mentioned to you?

Again, no orders until December from anyone; no deliveries until March, April or who knows when.

The bigger OEMS are normally good about getting newly released models to the dealers in a timely manner.

Which is why this is all likely a marketing ploy.

Now if they are more concerned about this new model making a big splash back east or in the mid-west for the trail riders there is no rush to get the car to the dealers in winter time when not many are out on the trails in those areas.

Nobody has ever pulled that crap for that reasoning and we all know this. Nobody has ever delayed accepting orders for two months and then delivered 6+ months after first deposits either. We'll get to the bottom of this eventually with most really not caring as it gives customers plenty of time and opportunity to evaluate dealers. If you've got to wait forever anyways, you're sure as heck not going to make a deposit with some dealer making a proposition to screw you on fees, freight and setup whenever that time comes.

 

[SxS]

...now again (to get back on topic)...if SPEED had been allowing conflicting information (bogus information already forwarded to them well before the show began) to be spread at the Sand Show?
Why would anyone with a deposit down be expecting absolutely anything let alone a car in the end?
This is where depositors are today and why I expect nothing from either given what both are crafting their reputations to be viewed as in 2024 and (apparently?) beyond.