The Transaxle Thread

[Dockmaster]

I have been told that both of these use the same R&P and same gears. Is this true?

Same R&P teeth, yes. Not the same 1st-5th gears. Albins does have slightly wider gears than an S5D, but not by much.

how does the Albins achieve a higher rating than the S5D?

Albins uses a Torsen differential (12 planetary gears, 6 each driving a sun gear), which is far stronger than the 4-spider open diff in the S4D/S5D. Also adds some traction biasing effect (limited slip diff) to get power to both wheels under acceleration.

There are some other design features with the housings and the way the bearings and gears are done in the Albins to give it a stronger overall rating.

If second gear is the weaker link in an S5D what does Albins do differently to overcome this?

2nd gear is cut onto the mainshaft with 1st gear (like a VW), rather than being splined onto the shaft. The S5D has a splined 2nd gear, and the way the gear is offset to the splines, it creates a bit of a weak spot. 

There are many other small factors that add up to an Albins having an overall higher capability to an S4D/S5D. I have been pushing the S4D/S5D lately because I know that most people don't use all of the power they actually have other than a few short bursts from time to time. I truly believe the Weddle is the best "bang for your buck" if you have a limited budget. 

Excellent, exactly the info I was hoping for. Thank you. This makes my decision even easier. I will add to the budget to go with the Albins now that I have a better sense of what you get for the added $$. 

 

[ranman5608]

Sean I purchased a brand new s4 installed it in the car and while reinstalling the motor I got it all sinched down made sure the splines were in the clutch disk and everything went smoothly I wanted to double check everything thing and I’m glad I did. As I went to turn the motor over with a wrench on the crank I get a grinding sound. In order to not destroy the thrust bearings in the motor I pulled it back out to see what was hitting and it seems like the flywheel teeth are touching something but I can’t seem to pin point what it is. 
 

is there a specific area in the bell housing that doesn’t get machined down quite enough some times? I thought I’d ask before I put some diechem in the bell housing and try to put the motor back in to hopefully mark out the problem area 

clutch is a refreshed single disk from Kennedy 
 

 

[lincster]

Sean I purchased a brand new s4 installed it in the car and while reinstalling the motor I got it all sinched down made sure the splines were in the clutch disk and everything went smoothly I wanted to double check everything thing and I’m glad I did. As I went to turn the motor over with a wrench on the crank I get a grinding sound. In order to not destroy the thrust bearings in the motor I pulled it back out to see what was hitting and it seems like the flywheel teeth are touching something but I can’t seem to pin point what it is. 
 

is there a specific area in the bell housing that doesn’t get machined down quite enough some times? I thought I’d ask before I put some diechem in the bell housing and try to put the motor back in to hopefully mark out the problem area 

clutch is a refreshed single disk from Kennedy 
 

This area maybe?

It happens.  Have had 3 S4's have this same issue.  No big deal per Kevin McMullen.  Once it clearances itself, no more noise.

 

[SeanRitchie]

Yes. That spot is the common area that the bolts from the clutch cover contact. We machine this area as deep as we can without cutting into the bronze bushing. Some cover bolts stand up a little tall and hit this spot.

Best to try and find some lower profile pressure plate bolts 1st. Grind/Clearance as last resort. 

 

[ranman5608]

perfect thank you

 

[ranman5608]

turns out the flywheel was hitting the starter because i had flipped it over to clear the fuel cell not noticing the starter has an offset mount. thank you guys for the help.

 

[FOG]

I have a PBS cable shifter that replaces the standard nose cone.  It is currently on a Megasand 3 speed transaxle and I would like to remove it and use it on a 2d transaxle. 
Will I have a standard 4 speed H pattern once I make the swap or will some additional modifications be required?

Hoping someone has tried this before with success or @Sean@Weddle can advise. 
Thanks. 

 

[SeanRitchie]

I have a PBS cable shifter that replaces the standard nose cone.  It is currently on a Megasand 3 speed transaxle and I would like to remove it and use it on a 2d transaxle. 
Will I have a standard 4 speed H pattern once I make the swap or will some additional modifications be required?

Hoping someone has tried this before with success or @Sean@Weddle can advise. 
Thanks. 

In short, yes, that nosecone will bolt up to a 2D.

If you currently have the "2D" Megasand with the larger mainshaft bearing that stands out of the housing, the section of nosecone that acts as a thrust surface for the bearing will be clearanced.

If you have the Type 1 or 091 Megasand, that nosecone would need to be machined to allow for the larger bearing on the 2D. 

Sorry, I don't have any pictures handy to show what I am talking about, and nothing currently in the shop that I can take a picture of.

 

[Dylanshaffer]

@FOG In addition to maybe needing to clearance the shift housing for the bearing you may also need to trim the shift forks. Here’s a picture of a megasand with the forks trimmed as well as a super awful picture of how they should be trimmed (best I could find). 




 

actually was just able to use internet archive to grab this snapshot from the pbs website from years ago

 

[FOG]

In short, yes, that nosecone will bolt up to a 2D.

If you currently have the "2D" Megasand with the larger mainshaft bearing that stands out of the housing, the section of nosecone that acts as a thrust surface for the bearing will be clearanced.

If you have the Type 1 or 091 Megasand, that nosecone would need to be machined to allow for the larger bearing on the 2D. 

Sorry, I don't have any pictures handy to show what I am talking about, and nothing currently in the shop that I can take a picture of.

Thanks for your quick response. 

 

[FOG]

@FOG In addition to maybe needing to clearance the shift housing for the bearing you may also need to trim the shift forks. Here’s a picture of a megasand with the forks trimmed as well as a super awful picture of how they should be trimmed (best I could find). 

View attachment 118414

View attachment 118415
 

actually was just able to use internet archive to grab this snapshot from the pbs website from years ago

View attachment 118419

@Dylanshaffer Thanks for all of your detailed information. I really appreciate your efforts. 

 

[KLC]

This may have been addressed many times in the past but I'm old and I want to hear it again. Does it hurt anything in an HV24 to start the engine and run it for a while in nuetral if the car has been sitting unmoved, possibly for months at a time? The mainshaft is still spinning and I wonder if there is enough lubrication on the bearings for doing so.

I guess the solution is to jack up the rear wheels and put it in gear? Is this even necessary?

 

[SeanRitchie]

This may have been addressed many times in the past but I'm old and I want to hear it again. Does it hurt anything in an HV24 to start the engine and run it for a while in nuetral if the car has been sitting unmoved, possibly for months at a time? The mainshaft is still spinning and I wonder if there is enough lubrication on the bearings for doing so.

I guess the solution is to jack up the rear wheels and put it in gear? Is this even necessary?

The only issue that could arise is having an input shaft seal in the bell housing go bad and start to leak.

With the car not in motion, the R&P is not churning oil to the input seal and lubricating it. Running for a long time in neutral could allow the seal to get hot and brittle, then develop a leak.

Nothing else would be harmed in the gearbox though.

 

[ranman5608]

quick question gents. I purchased a new pilot bearing for my LS but its be the old style needle bearing should I get the sealed bearing instead?

 

[SeanRitchie]

quick question gents. I purchased a new pilot bearing for my LS but its be the old style needle bearing should I get the sealed bearing instead?

I think the needle bearings are ok to use (I am sure there are a few that would dis-agree with that), but certainly not as good as the sealed bearing.

Just make sure the bearing is well greased and the seal is installed to the outside of the crank so it seals the bearing.

 

[Josh121]

I think the needle bearings are ok to use (I am sure there are a few that would dis-agree with that), but certainly not as good as the sealed bearing.

Just make sure the bearing is well greased and the seal is installed to the outside of the crank so it seals the bearing.

Hey Sean, I was wondering if you could break down the new Albins AGB R4 and give your general thoughts on it?

 

[SeanRitchie]

Hey Sean, I was wondering if you could break down the new Albins AGB R4 and give your general thoughts on it?

I haven't seen one in person, they were in design phase while I was still at Weddle, but I did see internals in some pictures from Sand Show.

Wider 1st-4th gears, big power cars were putting some abuse on 3rd and 4th gears.
2nd gear splined onto mainshaft, rather than machined onto shaft with 1st, cheaper to replace when 2nd gear wears.
New shift pattern (gets rid of half shift for neutral between 1st and 2nd), optimized for paddle shifters.
Stronger slider hubs (previous 3-4 hub common to crack/break).
New cast sidecovers are supposedly stiffer, will prevent diff/ring gear deflection under hard hits.
I think they made some improvement to the diff gears as well, the latest batch were wearing prematurely.

It should be considerably stronger than the previous version.

The cast sidecovers are going to be a b*tch to clean out!

 

[lincster]

Stronger trans to handle the razor chop.

 

[EmpirE231]

What’s the scoop on the Sadev (sp?) trans? Looks pretty trick, saw one on a new alumicraft.

 

[Greg Rakes]

What’s the scoop on the Sadev (sp?) trans? Looks pretty trick, saw one on a new alumicraft.

SL923 TRANSAXLE -

Discover the SL923 is part of the latest generation of sand sport transmissions SADEV, combining experience and new technology, at the best price on the market. SADEV, driven by innovation, defined by performance.

www.sadev-tm.com

I think this one.

 

[SeanRitchie]

What’s the scoop on the Sadev (sp?) trans? Looks pretty trick, saw one on a new alumicraft.

Starting at $50k. It's a very nice trans, Sadev know's how to make a good gearbox, and I have no doubts that they will work well, but they don't know the market. I am not sold on the Sadev units for the long term.

Albins and Fortin already have a very nice gearbox in the $40k-$50k range for the high end market. The Albins has proven it's strength until some of these cars started pushing 2000 HP, which is why they redesigned and came out with the AGB R4. The Weddle S4D units have been proving their strength in cars up to 1500 HP over the past 5 years, and at $20k, they are bargain in my opinion. I just don't see a market for a 3rd high end unit.

It is very odd to me that they (Sadev) looked at this market and decided to get in on it, when there are already 3 other manufactures (Albins, Fortin, Weddle) making strong, high end transaxles for a very niche market. The three established manufactures are only selling a handful of units per year, they are definitely not selling 100's of units per year that would allow room for another manufacture to squeeze in and take over some market share.

Most manufactures have to make parts in runs of 50-100 pcs of each part to keep the cost of production low. That is 50-100 gearboxes worth of housings, gears, R&P, diff parts, etc. That is a very large investement (ask me how I know with the Weddle HV-2 program) Even if they manage to sell 10 units per year, that is 5-10 years worth of parts sitting on the shelf that waiting to sell. That seems like a rather big risk for a small market.

It is also very strange to me that Fortin signed a deal with Sadev to distribute and service them, when they already have their own competing transaxle at a similar price point. What is their incentive to sell the Sadev against their own? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Time will tell how the service-ability and parts availability will be for these in the next 5-10 years as they get used and worn out. If you think Albins and Fortin parts are expensive to replace...