My air cooled turbo project. (no more E85, just race fuel)

[Five.five-six]

Well, things are going in the right direction... I’m putting things back on the car.  This is about as stripped as it got:

I got the transmission and new CV’s back from the builder a few weeks ago and installed the trans and new CVs and bought new axels because there was some question as to if they had been turned around... and for good measure, I stopped at Kartek for some washers and stub axel bearings and they sold me a new set of one piece chromoly stub axles.  

 

One piece stub axles

Great big fan for my 14” X 14” setrab oil cooler

We did the math and used a calculator and it turns out that I’m going to need 80 pound injectors with E85 which will make it hard to idle so the decision was made to do 2 40 pound injectors per hole.  Also, sequential fuel pumps and a fuel accumulater and lift pump have been added to the design.  

I need to get my 2376 engine out to my builder so he can split it and get started.  Once that’s done, I’ll have the exhaust made   

 

[Five.five-six]

I was searching for an old photo of my M1919A2 to troll the gun porn thread with and I found this photo of my car 15 yeats ago when my buddy bought it.  He lives in Vegas and it was in HB and he had me check it out before he bought it...

 

[Five.five-six]

I’m so busy with work i wont be able to get my other engine to the builder until the 21st unless I play hooky on Tuesday and drive out to Vegas and back

I was looking at going to comp turbo for the turbo wastegate and blowoff.   Are they good or should I look elsewhere?

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

One piece stub axles

I ran (abused) welded Stubs like that for So many years and Never broke one  - its amazing how much abuse those good old German parts could take

 

[ERS]

Looking forward to seeing how this goes. Im also planning to run EFI E85 on my turbo 2276 in the future, currently not running. Keep posting and good luck, its looking good so far!

 

[Jaybird95]

I just installed some new welded stubs because I've heard some bad news about the one piece stubs.

 

[Bobalos]

I dont know if Comp is any good now days, but we went through 4 of them on the OL10.5 car I worked on before we got tired of throwing good money after bad with them.....  went back to old fashioned Garret & they were bulletproof. 

 

[Five.five-six]

I dont know if Comp is any good now days, but we went through 4 of them on the OL10.5 car I worked on before we got tired of throwing good money after bad with them.....  went back to old fashioned Garret & they were bulletproof. 

Good to know!
 

I need to stop answering the phone when my buddy that’s helping me out calls.  This week we’ve added IE 80 pound injectors, custom intake manifold, dual in tank fuel pumps in a custom baffled tank, oh and I almost forgot,  dual intercoolers...

 

[Five.five-six]

Now I’m thinking I’m going to build a new fuel tank because I only hold 12 gallons and a turbo E85 engine is going to eat right through that quick.  Even if I do decide to stick with gasoline, I think I need a larger tank and it was suggested that I use an intank fuel pump and I’d like a duel pump but only need one for 300-350 HP, all the ones I see are for much bigger engines.   Any ideas? 

 

[Five.five-six]

I just installed some new welded stubs because I've heard some bad news about the one piece stubs.

View attachment 3684

I missed this post, what did you hear about them?  Your welds look a lot better than the welds on my old ones.  

 

[Five.five-six]

Talk to me about fuel cells, I have decided that I need more fuel storage but how much safer is a fuel cell than a custom aluminum tank?

 

[richard h]

My main concern with a sand car was rolling. I had an old tank with a vented cap that sits right behind the seats (2 seater). I felt unsafe as if upside down cap would allow gas to fall on people in car. I did an aluminum tank with a carb cap that seals tight and then did the complete looped vent hose. I have no worries now.

 

[Five.five-six]

My main concern with a sand car was rolling. I had an old tank with a vented cap that sits right behind the seats (2 seater). I felt unsafe as if upside down cap would allow gas to fall on people in car. I did an aluminum tank with a carb cap that seals tight and then did the complete looped vent hose. I have no worries now.

I can’t think of a time I’ve heard of a tank rupture in the sand... not saying it never happened

I need to figure out what fuel pump to buy.  I’d like an intank  dual pump that I can stage but I only need 350HP rated on e85 and everything on summit racing is a lot bigger than that.  Any ideas?  I know OEM pumps have built in fuel level senders, which would be a plus but since I’m building a custom tank, I guess it doesn’t matter.  

 

[Lord of the Dunes]

I can’t think of a time I’ve heard of a tank rupture in the sand... not saying it never happened

I need to figure out what fuel pump to buy.  I’d like an intank  dual pump that I can stage but I only need 350HP rated on e85 and everything on summit racing is a lot bigger than that.  Any ideas?  I know OEM pumps have built in fuel level senders, which would be a plus but since I’m building a custom tank, I guess it doesn’t matter.  

I had a cylindrical fuel tank on 2 mounting points with straps. Even with 20" of travel and 8 well tuned shocks, I was landing so hard the bottom half circle mounts eventually ripped into the tank and I limped back to camp pouring fuel.

I replaced that with a rectangular 16 gal "fuel cell" with all inlets/outlets/level sender mounted on a plate in the top. Again, I was jumping so high and landing so hard, I split one side of the tank. I took it to a shop and they welded all seams over again. It's lasted fine for the last 5 yrs or so, but my recommendation is a real fuel cell, with a bladder and foam insert in it. Also based on what I read on the lost website, one needs to replace the foam every few yrs. How often, I don't recall exactly. Anyways, I've had major leakage from 2 different fuel tanks.

As far as tank mounted fuel pump, I would urge you to stick with external, for several reasons.

1. I met the top US fuel system expert and he told me more than I ever wanted to know about fuel, tanks, pumps, etc. One thing he told me was when you have a spark and the right A/F mixture, you'll get an explosion. Due to the (IIRC) vapor pressure, they never put a fuel pump in a diesel tank because when the fuel level is low enough, the spark from the pump will ignite the air/fuel vapors. In a gas tank, the vapor pressure is high enough that no air is ever in the tank unless it's empty and vapor has dissipated enough, so all car mfrs put the pump in the gas tank for simplicity, cheaper, etc. In an off road car, chances are much greater that something will happen, all fuel can drain out and you might get that explosive mixture in your tank. Very remote, but not impossible.

2. Since it's an off road car, you're better off with an external pump plumbed into a deep sump area on the bottom of the tank that is never uncovered no matter your G forces or air time. I've seen one guy mount a 1 gal separate "sump tank" plumbed into the bottom of his main tank to ensure he never lost fuel pressure no matter how crazy he drove.

3. Another, more common occurrence is debris will block the inlet mesh of your new pump and a lot of people have pulled their hair out trying to T/S an intermittent fuel problem by checking voltage, current, pressure, buying a new pump, new filters, etc only to find the inlet mesh on their nearly new pump is clogged. It's way easier to shut the valve on the tank fitting, unscrew the 100 micron prefilter, wash it out, unscrew the pump and clean the inlet out and put it back together. This might happen a couple or a few times. Much easier than taking off all of the nuts from the top plate and pulling out the internal pump and cleaning off that prefilter then putting it all back together.

 

[Lord of the Dunes]

I just went and read your whole thread. Very cool! If I could suggest another method...

I've seen YT videos of boosted engines running premium and E85 at the same time. The main (roughly)15 gal tank is full of 91 octane and runs 4 big injectors and a good high volume pump for the engine from idle on up. The E85 tank is (roughly) 10 gal and plumbed to a good volume pump and dual injectors mounted upstream of the turbo. When boost hits a set psi, the E85 injectors kick in and there's a massive cooling effect from the E85 from pre-turbo, through the intercooler and into the intake. The net result is you're only burning E85 when you're above a set level of boost. I know E85 is cheaper than 91, but your final mpg will be greater with 15gal of 91 and 10gal of E85 than it would if burning just E85, not to mention better combustion and better intake cooling throughout the RPM range. 

I've seen Nelson Racing Engines do similar on their big HP engines with 16 injectors. 8 injectors pumping 91 octane from idle to redline and the extra 8 pumping E85 from a set boost level to redline. He got much smoother idle, low throttle responsiveness, better MPG, etc than if running 8 massive injectors on E85.

Yes, it's two complete fuel tanks and fuel systems, plus tuning would be trickier, but talk about slick... besides, it's your money, not mine.   

 

[Bobalos]

FYI, dodge has about a zillion diesel trucks with fuel pumps in the tank.  

 

[Lord of the Dunes]

FYI, dodge has about a zillion diesel trucks with fuel pumps in the tank.  

They might be using brushless motors, which would be a new development, after I talked to the fuel system expert, circa 2003. Anything that emits a spark is a nono in a diesel fuel tank. 

 

[Five.five-six]

I had a cylindrical fuel tank on 2 mounting points with straps. Even with 20" of travel and 8 well tuned shocks, I was landing so hard the bottom half circle mounts eventually ripped into the tank and I limped back to camp pouring fuel.

I replaced that with a rectangular 16 gal "fuel cell" with all inlets/outlets/level sender mounted on a plate in the top. Again, I was jumping so high and landing so hard, I split one side of the tank. I took it to a shop and they welded all seams over again. It's lasted fine for the last 5 yrs or so, but my recommendation is a real fuel cell, with a bladder and foam insert in it. Also based on what I read on the lost website, one needs to replace the foam every few yrs. How often, I don't recall exactly. Anyways, I've had major leakage from 2 different fuel tanks.

As far as tank mounted fuel pump, I would urge you to stick with external, for several reasons.

1. I met the top US fuel system expert and he told me more than I ever wanted to know about fuel, tanks, pumps, etc. One thing he told me was when you have a spark and the right A/F mixture, you'll get an explosion. Due to the (IIRC) vapor pressure, they never put a fuel pump in a diesel tank because when the fuel level is low enough, the spark from the pump will ignite the air/fuel vapors. In a gas tank, the vapor pressure is high enough that no air is ever in the tank unless it's empty and vapor has dissipated enough, so all car mfrs put the pump in the gas tank for simplicity, cheaper, etc. In an off road car, chances are much greater that something will happen, all fuel can drain out and you might get that explosive mixture in your tank. Very remote, but not impossible.

2. Since it's an off road car, you're better off with an external pump plumbed into a deep sump area on the bottom of the tank that is never uncovered no matter your G forces or air time. I've seen one guy mount a 1 gal separate "sump tank" plumbed into the bottom of his main tank to ensure he never lost fuel pressure no matter how crazy he drove.

3. Another, more common occurrence is debris will block the inlet mesh of your new pump and a lot of people have pulled their hair out trying to T/S an intermittent fuel problem by checking voltage, current, pressure, buying a new pump, new filters, etc only to find the inlet mesh on their nearly new pump is clogged. It's way easier to shut the valve on the tank fitting, unscrew the 100 micron prefilter, wash it out, unscrew the pump and clean the inlet out and put it back together. This might happen a couple or a few times. Much easier than taking off all of the nuts from the top plate and pulling out the internal pump and cleaning off that prefilter then putting it all back together.

You are spot on, I spent the whole day pee peeing off and reading about fuel delivery and came up with for 350 predicted HP, I'll need 300L/H E85 @ 70 pounds to be on the safe side. I had been thinking of staging 2 smaller pumps based on manifold pressure but it's hard to find quality pumps that small that are E85 comparable.  After a call to Kinsler, I have settled on a single Weldon 2005.  I'm going to feed it with a Holley HydraMat    .  Everything I read and hear about the Hydramat is pure awesome, even the guys at Kinsler gave it their blessing and they don't even sell them.  also it works as a 15 micron prefilter... but you can't really clean it so once it gets fouled, you replace it. 

What I really need is someone to fabricate a fuel tank, the guy I had lined up has impeccable workmanship but he can be difficult to motivate and I don't know that I would have it done by October  

 

[Five.five-six]

I just went and read your whole thread. Very cool! If I could suggest another method...

I've seen YT videos of boosted engines running premium and E85 at the same time. The main (roughly)15 gal tank is full of 91 octane and runs 4 big injectors and a good high volume pump for the engine from idle on up. The E85 tank is (roughly) 10 gal and plumbed to a good volume pump and dual injectors mounted upstream of the turbo. When boost hits a set psi, the E85 injectors kick in and there's a massive cooling effect from the E85 from pre-turbo, through the intercooler and into the intake. The net result is you're only burning E85 when you're above a set level of boost. I know E85 is cheaper than 91, but your final mpg will be greater with 15gal of 91 and 10gal of E85 than it would if burning just E85, not to mention better combustion and better intake cooling throughout the RPM range. 

I've seen Nelson Racing Engines do similar on their big HP engines with 16 injectors. 8 injectors pumping 91 octane from idle to redline and the extra 8 pumping E85 from a set boost level to redline. He got much smoother idle, low throttle responsiveness, better MPG, etc than if running 8 massive injectors on E85.

Yes, it's two complete fuel tanks and fuel systems, plus tuning would be trickier, but talk about slick... besides, it's your money, not mine.   

We actually were initially going to run 8 40 pound injectors... fallowed that rabbit hole for a bit and decided that as a matter of complexity and reliability (more things to break) I'm going with 4 Injector dynamics 100 pound injectors and I'm tossing my existing risers in favor of putting injector bungs on the bottom of the riser so the injector fires straight into the valve.   I'm aware the car is going to be cold blooded, worst case I'll put a port in the intake to shoot some ether in the morning.

Also, none of it's my money, it's all my wife's and when she finds out, she's going to kick my ass...