Living with a 2D

Blackjack

Blackjack

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Hey all.  I have been duning for going on 20 years, most of that time in a SXS.  I have always been envious of sand cars.  Big shocks, big power, big comfort.  I have my SXS built to the hilt, but I know it is no match for a sand car.  Realizing I'm not getting any younger, I have seriously started looking at sand cars, but I am realizing that I don't know jack chit about what I need to be looking for.  So many brands, and I only know the reputation of big builders.  I assume there are well built lesser known brands that exist, but maybe not.  I have talked to different builders, and they make it sound like other (big name) builders cars "just don't work" in the dunes.  They don't turn, ride like crap, blah, blah, blah.  Makes me feel like if I don't have $150K plus to spend, then I should just move it along.  I would like to say that I have unlimited funds, but the reality is that I need to find a decent used car, preferably under $75K.  So much research, so little time....

Seems in this price range that the 2D transaxle rules the roost.  This brings me to one of my endless questions.  Everyone in the know seems to have the same opinion of the 2D; you have to handle it like a china doll.  Does this mean 2D cars aren't as much fun because you are always concerned with babying the clutch/trans?  I pin my RZR through the whoops (big turbo) hitting 75+ MPH and the trans is the last thing I am thinking about.  Will it be the experience I imagine in my head it will be if the transmission is always on the cusp of giving up the ghost?  I have considered just kicking down for a S4D if/when I do pick up a car, but then I consider that in addition to the cost of the car and new trans, there would also be fab costs, as I assume they mount differently.  A welder I'm not, so I would absolutely have to pay for the fabrication.  I know purchasing a sand car is likely one of the worst things you could probably ever spend money on, but if I'm going to do it, I at least want it to be an "educated" approach.  So, I guess to summarize, should I just factor in the cost of an S4D once I find the car I want, as it most likely will have a 2D.  Not sure this would even makes sense to do though.  

 
2D is a fine tranny if you drive normal and don't have over 450hp.  I will give examples, I drive a Funco Gen 4, Honda 3.5 turbo (400hp or so) on a 2d.  I have had this car for 6 years, I had to pull the tranny for bearing noise after the first two years, I currently have 4 years (over 100 days of duning) on the tranny, zero issues.  I am pulling it this summer due the engine coming out because of a main seal leak.  I will have it freshened up.  I drive fast, but don't race.  I have had two cars with 2d's, I have never broken a gear on a 2d in 10 years of driving, 200-250 days of duning.  That being said, I treat everything I have with respect and don't go out there a beat on my things.  FYI, I have never changed the oil in my 2D as well..............

I think if you are running anything smaller than a V8, a 2d works.  If you move up to a V8 and a car that weighs 2500lb then a 2d becomes a weak link.  I know plenty of people that run 2d with V8's with no issues as well, but they do drive smart.

 
i rate a 2D at 500hp (subie power) and at that,  its good for 2-3 years of hard driving and then should have a light rebuild. if the v8 is 400-500hp you might get away with it for a while but i would say you need to be more cautious of the same V8 hp because of the massive torque available at low rpms.  that is what kills the tranny is an instant serving of huge torque when the gears are moving relatively slow.  subies don't make as much torque down low so they are easier on the 2D at the same HP levels of a V8

if you are planning an s4 or s4D then i would suggest buying it with one already because the cost isn't just the tranny, but the install, probably bigger axles and CV's and possible larger rear arms and brakes to go along with it

 
The 2D is a great trans, the problem is a lot of people put too much HP to them and/or drive them like a race truck. My buddy had a 2D with an LS3 (500ph) for 10 seasons without a single issue. If you keep the power under 500hp, try not to use reverse, don't hammer it through the whoops or wheelie the car then the 2D is going to be fine.

Bigger trans = bigger cv's - bigger axles - bigger hubs - bigger hp - bigger budget 

 
I have a dunebuggy.com car I am going to be listing for sale soon. 

LS7 rebuilt last year did over 500 hp to the hub dyno

New holley terminator ECU

Albins 5 speed transaxle Rebuilt by kevin mcmullen last year)

934 super greaser hubs (1 season)

2" hollows (1 season)

brand new ron davis radiator and fans to replace old radiator ( still in the box not installed yet)

last year I tore down the car to the chassis and re powder coated it and built it back up (with the help of joe fab at his shop) with either rebuilt or new parts.

Give me a call if you are interested. Looking to get a little more than you are asking but want to see it go to a good home.

 
Most of the cars I'm looking at are N/A LS3's between 500-600 HP.  I had a reputable builder tell me that you "need" 8-900 h.p. to "have fun" in the dunes.  So, I'm already thinking supercharger, which = bigger everything else.  This is the point where I see the funnel form as my money starts going down the drain.  I know the H.P. bug is real, and I want to "have fun".  Perhaps my reality is that what I want just isn't affordable for me. 

 
You should be able to find a nice car with a sequential (S4/5) or maybe a S4D in your price range. I wouldn’t buy a 2d with the intention of upgrading it because as others have said it’s more than just the tranny. 
It’s summer and gas prices are still going up someone’s going to be selling what you want. Be patient. 

 
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There are lots of cars with 2D's out there, most will be 10+ years old and have some decent time on them. I would say they have proven to be a somewhat reliable trans when driven with respect and not overpowered. The line I always say is: "If you want to drive it like a race car, then you will need to expect race car level repair bills".

That is not to say that you cannot use all of the power that is available to you in worry of breaking something, but the more often you use that power, the more frequently you will need to be prepared to pull that transmission out for service before something breaks. If you do throw more than 450 HP to them, then you should be prepared for some broken parts.

There is noting wrong with buying an existing car with a 2D as long as it doesn't have too much power to start with, say anything more than 450 HP/TQ at the crank from a typical LS. You should also be prepared to spend a good chunk of money on the first service, as you should not expect the previous owner to have taken good care of anything on that car, unless they have some documentation to back it up. I have had more than one of these conversations with disappointed new-used car owners that thought they only needed a basic freshen up on the trans and it needed much more.

Remember that not everyone drives exactly the same. There are some that can make these live with 500+ HP for 5+ years, and others that will break them with a 200 HP 4-cylinder every year. Whoever is connected to the right foot will always be the biggest variable. 

If you want anything with more than 400 HP, you should be looking at something with a sequential (Or HV-24/HV-25, but these are not really on the used market)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
parker@gearone said:
I have a dunebuggy.com car I am going to be listing for sale soon. 

LS7 rebuilt last year did over 500 hp to the hub dyno

New holley terminator ECU

Albins 5 speed transaxle Rebuilt by kevin mcmullen last year)

934 super greaser hubs (1 season)

2" hollows (1 season)

brand new ron davis radiator and fans to replace old radiator ( still in the box not installed yet)

last year I tore down the car to the chassis and re powder coated it and built it back up (with the help of joe fab at his shop) with either rebuilt or new parts.

Give me a call if you are interested. Looking to get a little more than you are asking but want to see it go to a good home.
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I would check this car out.  Cant go wrong with the Albins in there.  Kevin is the go to guy for trans in the Valley.

 
I think that unless someone is really good at shock/spring setup, or had a pro go through it, you're going to be disappointed in ride quality coming from a SxS.  Be prepared to spend some cash re-valving/springing it/adjusting to get it dialed to how you want it. 

Even then, I'd forget about any expectation for whoop eating with a V8/2D unless rebuilds every 1-2 seasons is your thing.  It's hard to set them up to haul ass through the whoops without putting stress on the transaxle or riding like chit while actually duning. With a SxS, you can just mash it and the rear settles down.  Do that with a V8 and 2D and you eventually get fork in a garbage disposal noises and your trans builder knows you by first name. :biggrin:

That being said, nothing dunes like a buggy.  

 
Broke my 2d in the Funco 5 times. Last time was a tooth from 4th gear. 400hp V6 with no torque. Put in an S4 and would never go back. Every ride I would wonder when it will break again. S4 was a big project to convert. Better to buy a car with the bigger trans already.

 
onanysunday said:
Broke my 2d in the Funco 5 times. Last time was a tooth from 4th gear. 400hp V6 with no torque. Put in an S4 and would never go back. Every ride I would wonder when it will break again. S4 was a big project to convert. Better to buy a car with the bigger trans already.
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This is the 2d in my car now. Honda 3.5 a4 and works great, no issues.

 
I've had 2 cars with 2d's in them...a subi at 20#'s boost and a 550LS (also had a number of others in past 40 years). Both well used with 4-6 years between rebuilds. It can be done. Drive smart, no wheelies or launches from a dig, don't let the clutch out in reverse (extremely limited on reverse usage), and for me, over-inflate the rear tires so they spin as opposed to digging when things lug down (or use a lesser scoop profile).

As for cars, my mid engine tech 3 was a fun gokart but the Suspensions Unlimited was a pleasure to dune with. Shock set-up and triple bypasses make a world of difference. Both turned very well and few could hang when duning in a 'spirited' fashion.

On trans choice: remember the more expensive the trans, the more expensive the rebuilds. While 1st and 2nd gears are expensive in the 2d (about $1500 each), 3rd is cheap (about $75). So even a complete rebuild should be less than $5k (I drove in 3rd and 4th primarily with LS). Servicing/rebuilding a S4/D, each gear is more expensive and regular rebuilds are also more expensive (need to know how to shift to not damage gears) . An Albins ups the rebuild costs further but will also be less often.

Pay now or pay later. It's just when and how much. LOL

for horsepower, 4-500 HP is more than enough to play and get into trouble with (also can me managed with a 2d). If deeper pockets and/or bigger ego then up the base to a higher horsepower/trans/car platform. Horsepower cost money and higher maintenance costs. Forced induction ups the game as well from 91 octane (at $6.50/gallon) to 110 octane at (OMG) per gallon!!! LOL More than 500 just becomes bragging rights in my opinion unless you are trying to hit 100mph going to duners diner (at that point it's a whole package needed-suspension, brakes, cooling, well developed skills, etc.). JMHO

 
Its all personal.

Do you need 8-900 hp to have fun? Hell no!

I know you said S4D but keep in mind if you get an S4, it has the same R&P as a 2D.

S4D is bigger

S4D & Albins will be a lot mor $$ to rebuild but you will do it less often.

I have a 2400lb car +- with an LS2 and a 2D w/930's, trans is 5 years old and Ill pull it this summer for a refresh.

If you buy a car with a 2D and change it to an S4D there is a lot more to it than just the trans. 

Like I said up top, its personal! How you will drive. What will make you smile & giggle. Sandcar is very different than a SxS so its a different kind of fun (to me)

For $75k you should be able to find something with a S4, may have to step the budget up to get an S4D

 
A lot of good points made. The two biggest things I’d address with your original post are “needing 800-900 hp to have fun” and paying 75k for a 2d car.

Don’t need 800 hp to have fun. Unless of course you’ve been driving a 700 hp car for the last 20 years. 
 

I don’t fault the sellers for asking 75k for their 2d car, but I do think that anyone who pays 75k for a 2d car is CRAZY, even in today’s crazy market.

Summer is just beginning, be patient and keep looking. Have cash in hand and be ready to buy.

 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned total car weight as a factor here unless I missed it in a post somewhere. I have 510 hp LS3 with a DECO case 2D in a relatively lightweight (under 2k) 2 seat, mid-engine car. Car is a 2015 and I'm second owner and had it for near 4 years. I drive it hard although not a ton of hours on it. Trans has had nothing but normal maintenance since car was built. 

My point, you have to look at HP, driving style AND weight. 

 
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