Gen 4 Funco upgrade or new car

[ChasingSand]

Helps the boost ramp become sharper.  With the wastegate only, you're pressurizing the dome on the wastegate all the time.  So when it's at 2psi, you're putting 2psi of pressure on the spring and partially opening the wastegate.  This dulls boost response a little since a spring is linear and is fully open at whatever the spring pressure is.  The reality is slightly different, but basically your 7lb spring is opening the wastegate halfway at 3.5psi. 

With a boost controller, it won't send ANY boost "signal" to the wastegate until near target.  So if you set the "balance" or "gain" (or whatever the controller says) to sharper, your wastegate won't see any boost until you're nearly there.  This can cause some spiking/overshoot, so you have to fiddle with it, but the end result is you'll get better boost response from off throttle to on with one.



^ From Turbosmart, but this picture replaces my 1,000 words above. :biggrin:  

Thank  you!

 

[onanysunday]

Any predictions on HP? Weather Saturday will be 62/90. Lets use 15 psi boost for comparison sake. Little more timing and at that boost level I am going to guess 410 RWHP.  Would really like to end up at 440-450. Not sure how hard we can squeeze it.  Question will be at what point do I chicken out and call uncle. I had about 110 hours to rebuild this motor so not a small project if I break it.  Used to drive my own car on the dyno and can't do it anymore. You can feel the load and it makes me cringe. 

 

[onanysunday]

Here is the thing if you go and torture yourself all summer long get this swapped out to the big bad fire breathing V8 you want and come October and you put it in the sand and it doesn't have the weight bias you thought it would, your screwed.

Turn up the hair dryer on this one for next year and re-evaluate next October. If your looking for a project to torture yourself with buy a boat.

Sold it a few years back. Don't miss it one bit.

 

[onanysunday]

I actually had bought that green subi power Gen 4. If I remember correctly the owner's name was Paul Huddleston. Drove it once at the dunes and decided to keep my car. Got it out of my system.

This was the car I bought. Popped up on GD.Com and I bought it over the phone. Believe I paid $24k. Drove from Phoenix just past Banning and Beaumont to pick it up. Drove straight to the dunes. Played with it all night and it was not running right. Worked until the sun came up and finally found it was a ground wire issue. Hauled ass and I ran a tank of gas through it. Colors really were not my deal and I had done so much work to my car. Also felt my v6 had more torque vs the subie. Brought it home and sold it in one hour on GD.Com for $29k. Kept the better set of rear paddles and the GPS which is still on my car. I had actually placed this super long ad on the forum for my car. Glad I kept it. Certainly have an attachment to it.

 

[onanysunday]

Date on those photos was October of 2010.

 

[onanysunday]

S4 will handle the HP, 

I have some S4 outlast S4D in the same car same driver, same motor, 

Couple ways with the single turbo, one is E85 with this you dont need a inner cooler, it is better to have one but do not need one, 

Everyone wants straight pump gas, not going to happen, you sneeze and can get detonation, 

Pump gas options would be a Meth Inj, or mix in some race fuel to make a true 93-96 octane, 

Compression can be your friend, no one like a lazy friend, and that is what low compression feels like, I would not go below 9.7-1 comp

A great motor without breaking the bank, would be a 402 or a 416,  Inconell Ex, Valves, would use a Great lifter, and a Great spring, for a Turbo, i only use a Johnson lifter and a PAC Spring, keep the Bearings on a looser level and A Hi-Volume pump, 

I have had many motor with a Kennedy Dual 9'' with no issues, The biggest lesson i have learned on turbo motors is #1 use a great injector, do not cheap out, #2 Make sure the bearing clearance is correct, #3 control the valve train, #4 dont use a cheap fuel pump, 

Compression in this motor is 8.8 to one.  Are you saying 9.7 on a turbo motor?

 

[onanysunday]

When I was designing the headers for my BBC turbo setup I spent hours in the garage laying on the floor staring @ it all & holding up bends & pieces of heater duct to figure out exactly what I wanted to do.  Once the train left the station it picked up steam & I was SUPER happy with the results.  7 P's though right.... 

But....... as John pointed out, aint no-one gonna pay for that.....  LOL

Was crazy busy when you had posted this but made me think of the headers in this car. Wicked. https://www.lsxmag.com/videos/drifting/the-ls7-in-this-passat-sounds-insane-thanks-to-some-8-to-1-headers/

 

[Bobalos]

that reminds me of this car.  I LOVED the way it sounded.

 

[onanysunday]

6 minutes ago, Bobalos said:

that reminds me of this car.  I LOVED the way it sounded.

Thing is nasty! Wooooo!

 

[HTElectrical]

1 hour ago, onanysunday said:

Any predictions on HP? Weather Saturday will be 62/90. Lets use 15 psi boost for comparison sake. Little more timing and at that boost level I am going to guess 410 RWHP.  Would really like to end up at 440-450. Not sure how hard we can squeeze it.  Question will be at what point do I chicken out and call uncle. I had about 110 hours to rebuild this motor so not a small project if I break it.  Used to drive my own car on the dyno and can't do it anymore. You can feel the load and it makes me cringe. 

1/2 the cars that were being run were totally UNSAFE with all of the looky-loos standing in the danger zone.

 

[onanysunday]

1/2 the cars that were being run were totally UNSAFE with all of the looky-loos standing in the danger zone.

Yep for sure. I need to revisit our policy for customers watching. I always stand behind these bars and pipes but after seeing that turbo wheel get loose even this would not be safe. Damn!

 

[onanysunday]

Good day today. Boost controller on my car failed probably a couple of years ago and it has been running on the 7psi spring only. Last trip the boost controller started to partially work causing all kinds of havoc. Now replaced and working correctly. Remembering back my car on 7psi and 50/50 ethanol to gas would be approx. 290 RWHP and 250 RWTQ. This graph shows a run comparing with the circular exhaust and muffler removed. Still only 7 psi. That is 26 RWHP and 26 RWTQ picked up from the exhaust alone letting the turbine spin free. Smoke from the exhaust is much better so the bigger turbo drain helped. Next time I have the pan off I will go to a -12 bulkhead fitting and line at the bottom. Guessing there is a slight bit of windage there pushing back.

 

[onanysunday]

This vid shows 422 RWHP and 403 RWTQ at approx. 14.5 lbs of boost. Duty cycle on the injectors was pushing the max so we backed off from here a little bit. Certainly more to be had but did not feel like putting new injectors in. Notice how smoke free it is on decel now. Before with the smaller turbo drain it would huff some smoke. 

 

[onanysunday]

These were the final numbers running the car early afternoon on a day that was supposed to be 90 degrees. With one fan blowing on the intercooler. Motor sounds really good here. 54 psi fuel pressure and 68% duty cycle on the injectors up top. From my calculations we gained 115 RWHP and 140 RWTQ. Oh and this is at just over 12 psi of boost. Same level of boost we made 350 before a few years ago when the boost controller was working. Included removing the exhaust which I think added 30/30 at this level on its own and then timing and fueling.  That speed is 3rd gear. My car is geared low and will maybe hit 96 mph in 4th in the sand. Guessing it could crack 100 on the dyno. So it has a lot of gear to go along with the new found torque. Been having a blast with it the way it was so it should really scoot around now.  :igor:  Notice we only made 3 rwtq less at 12 psi vs 14 psi after some additional adjusting. Down the road I think there is easily another 50+ at the wheels but have a feeling it will be pretty good. 

 

[onanysunday]

Musting Dyno vs Dynojet . Certainly like reading oil threads. But a lot of consensus says 10-12% difference. Not that it matters if your hair gets blown back and your happy. lol. 

 

[onanysunday]

Would be interesting to see what the actual drivetrain loss is. Only way to know would be put the engine on an engine dyno and then a chassis dyno for each application. Then of course the difference of chassis dyno numbers. :blury:  This article  mentions additional CV angle causing more loss. I have a hard time buying the 15% rule with sandrails. 

 

[onanysunday]

I agree. Great article and echos that there are many factors in the equation. Therefore the RWHP numbers everyone claims is just bragging rights that don’t amount to anything. An LS motor that puts out 400 wheel Hp in a 2600 LB car is not even a match to a lighter car with a subaru putting out 400 wheel. Not even in the same ball park.

great discussion!!

all I know is that 425 rwhp in a 2200 LB car gets it on!

I have said it many times that I feel that every 100# in a car is probably worth 50 hp. Or in other words if you lose 100 lbs then you could have 50!hp less and feel the same. A 2800 car would need to add 300 engine hp to the mix compared to a 2200 car. I know that’s not science but it’s my opinion

John, Have you or one of your customers ever run one of your engine packages on an engine dyno? Then you have run the car on your chassis dyno?

 

[John@Outfront]

John, Have you or one of your customers ever run one of your engine packages on an engine dyno? Then you have run the car on your chassis dyno?

not that a know of.  i do have a 2500HP DTS engine dyno, brand new that i bought from Mike Mendeola back 10 years ago with a sound proof room.  he never had a chance to use it then had to move.  I never had a place to set it up. it sits in storage.  it is on the bucket list. 

 

[onanysunday]

Another interesting and unique thing we did to my car. The intake cams only, have variable valve timing.  First pic is just from online and the 2nd and 3rd are from my car at some point. Solenoids controlled by pulse width modulation control oil through orfices to advance and retard each cam. There is 18 degrees of range stock from advance to Challenged. Last time around I had talked to Ben at Jim Wolf technology. He had an easy setup for more power and not having to set up a complete graph and tune for the vvt. With a pin drilled in the bottom we limited the range to 9 degrees instead of 18. When the car starts the cams are in the Challenged position. Then at 2000 rpm we use an PWM output on the Holley computer to turn them on. This advances the cams 9 degrees to the stop. Then at 5000 rpm we turn them back off. This puts them in the Challenged position from 5000-7000 rpm. When we ran it with and without last time a few years ago IIRC it was over 100 foot pounds of torque at the wheels difference. The difference was huge. Here is one of our dyno graphs from yesterday. You can see the jump in the curves where those cams engage. Super simple and very effective. (This pic was from a run early in the day. A lot of tuning over a span of 5 hours total happened and a lot after this particular run) It is noticeable on the graph but you never feel it in the car. It is smooth.

 

[onanysunday]

Here is an interesting photo from a very old motor in I believe the Funco early on. I had JB welded the cams solid like a regular non vvt motor. Slightly forward from the Challenged position but less than halfway. It actually worked well but you can make more power by varying those cams.