Fire System Install

Great write up Alex. I've been on fire twice at 100mph in a Class 1 car whioe racing and once in a boat at 115mph. For me, fire safety is paramount. Don't have pics on my phone but I'll add to the discussion when I'm on my laptop later this week. 

I currently have a 5 liter ESS system on my personal car with 3 nozzles, one pointed at each header and one on the dash. More on that decision later. 

 
@Fullthrottleguy, @L.R.S., @J Alper, or anyone else for that matter, have you looked real hard at a sand car (or desert car) that has been on fire and had an activated fire system?  

My curiosity is about the effectiveness of the system and lessons learned from the post fire evaluation. 

Also, does anyone know what alumicraft puts into their cars?  How about any other big, desert car builders?

 
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Bobalos said:
@Fullthrottleguy, @L.R.S., @J Alper, or anyone else for that matter, have you looked real hard at a sand car (or desert car) that has been on fire and had an activated fire system?  

My curiosity is about the effectiveness of the system and lessons learned from the post fire evaluation. 

Also, does anyone know what alumicraft puts into their cars?  How about any other big, desert car builders?
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I would trust the research fullthrottleguy and LRS have done, but as far as sand car builders go, it's anybody's guess how much research they've done on the subject. A while back I saw a video on FB of a Tatum that caught fire at (Little Sahara? Coral Pink?) and it was obvious it was some sort of Halon system because it was totally worthless and didn't emit a white fog like CO2 would have, it was clear, like Halon. The flames subsided for a second or two, then the flames came back bigger. Once the ignition was off and fuel stopped flowing, it took a bunch of people dumping sand on it to put out the flames. My point is either Tatum recommended that system or they let the customer override their suggestion and a Halon system was installed. It would have allowed the driver to get out without injury, but that's a very low bar to set. It didn't come close to extinguishing the fire, which is what I expect. I would trust Baja race teams, because they all share info about stuff like fires and what worked and what didn't.

The same thing goes for antenna mounting location. The vast majority of sand rails have the antenna mounted in the wrong place. Sure, they work, at about 1/2 or 1/4 efficiency. All race radio antennas should be mounted on the roof somewhere, preferably away from the edges. Most are mounted somewhere down near the engine and it's painful to see people spend that kind of money and get a car with such an important detail wrong. The big name builders just don't know any better. Or they don't care, which is even more scary.

Because of the openness of these cars, I've always felt Halon or other gaseous fire extinguishing agents would dissipate too quickly and easily, especially with any breeze at all. Halon was designed for sealed computer room use, not outdoor use. AFFF was designed to combat jet fuel fires on ships, and it does a great job of sticking to stuff and blanketing pools of fuel.

 
Lord of the Dunes said:
I would trust the research fullthrottleguy and LRS have done, but as far as sand car builders go, it's anybody's guess how much research they've done on the subject. A while back I saw a video on FB of a Tatum that caught fire at (Little Sahara? Coral Pink?) and it was obvious it was some sort of Halon system because it was totally worthless and didn't emit a white fog like CO2 would have, it was clear, like Halon. The flames subsided for a second or two, then the flames came back bigger. Once the ignition was off and fuel stopped flowing, it took a bunch of people dumping sand on it to put out the flames. My point is either Tatum recommended that system or they let the customer override their suggestion and a Halon system was installed. It would have allowed the driver to get out without injury, but that's a very low bar to set. It didn't come close to extinguishing the fire, which is what I expect. I would trust Baja race teams, because they all share info about stuff like fires and what worked and what didn't.

The same thing goes for antenna mounting location. The vast majority of sand rails have the antenna mounted in the wrong place. Sure, they work, at about 1/2 or 1/4 efficiency. All race radio antennas should be mounted on the roof somewhere, preferably away from the edges. Most are mounted somewhere down near the engine and it's painful to see people spend that kind of money and get a car with such an important detail wrong. The big name builders just don't know any better. Or they don't care, which is even more scary.

Because of the openness of these cars, I've always felt Halon or other gaseous fire extinguishing agents would dissipate too quickly and easily, especially with any breeze at all. Halon was designed for sealed computer room use, not outdoor use. AFFF was designed to combat jet fuel fires on ships, and it does a great job of sticking to stuff and blanketing pools of fuel.
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I agree 100% that "just getting passengers out" is a low bar in a way, but its todays "bar"  saving the car is harder and thats what Insurance is for (if you can get enough of it in CA)  Life saving is what these systems do.   The Manufacturers will tell you we cannot "practically" carry enough retardant to completely put out a fire if the tank ruptures or the car keeping running pumping fuel.  Most of us carry 5L or 10L at max, thats a few seconds of retardant.  and in an open car  with no flat surfaces, even the AFFF does not "stick" it slides off. 

Back in the day when we had VW powered rails it was common to shake up a Weber Carb and get the float stuck and gas would hit the header and you would have a fire. you get out throw sand on it  - shake out the air cleaner, tap the carb to reset the float and do more duning ...  that was 1/4" fuel line with 3.5lbs fuel pressure.

I hardly touch any cars today that are not SC or Turbo and have1 or  2 fuel pumps each capable of 150 gallons an hour  or more and running  Minimum -10AN lines (5/8")  with 60PSI fuel pressure and a full flow fuel return system. Many have 2 Qt make up tanks  - its a lot of fuel in "play" at any time. a Few of the cars are dry sump  with big Oil lines and 8-10 quarts of oil flowing around near the fuel lines too.   When that stuff melts or ruptures its literally a "fire hose"

Many of these fires happen quick - I saw a car from a "name brand builder" that had a tank  - not a fuel cell behind the front seat and in front of the rear passengers and the tank broke on the mounting (split) on a jump.  they said the fuel flowed forward and covered the front seats them flowed back (bounce after jump hard landing) over back seat and out and hit the headers - it was a fireball in under 30 seconds - I doubt even with the best fire systems anything but getting passengers out was possible.  That car did not have a fire system  ....

Constrast that to one of the guys in our group had a fuel line "pop" off his fuel pump on the second trip out for the car (rookie AN line assy mistake) and he emptied the tank driving in a couple minutes and it never caight fire - luck of the draw? or it just happened where the pump was low and below the upswept header? 

Fire systems, main power kills, wrist straps,  well designed cage and roof braces, good belts and seats .. all life savers  - not really car savers 

 
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I wondered what those were.  Id like to see the whole blade. 

I bought something like these for my boys when they started driving (mostly because they asked & I figured it was chicken soup).  I tested them on some strapping material I had & they work pretty bitchen 

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some interesting watches on the topic  When I talked with Bob Stroud about the system I bought from him he said 80% or so of the bottles he got sent back for refills were accidental activation's.  mostly while working on the car. 



 
Bobalos said:
I wondered what those were.  Id like to see the whole blade. 

I bought something like these for my boys when they started driving (mostly because they asked & I figured it was chicken soup).  I tested them on some strapping material I had & they work pretty bitchen 

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I forgot to mention I alway put seat cutters in the car -  I tried the Resqme on some old belts I had in the shop  I worked OK but was not as easy to mount - some people hang them on the belts with a piece of Para cord 

here is what my cutters look like - I have used them on last 4 cars  - no chance of missing with these and you get a good grip with two fingers through the holes

they also open bottles  and the end near the paracord can be used as a screwdriver or Dzus fastener remover - and just so I don't get in trouble with NASCAR - thats NOT a Noose

IMG_3683.jpeg

 
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29 minutes ago, Bobalos said:

some interesting watches on the topic  When I talked with Bob Stroud about the system I bought from him he said 80% or so of the bottles he got sent back for refills were accidental activation's.  mostly while working on the car. 

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thanks for posting - Tim is one my hero's guy knows his stuff - he is very practical

That cold fire video is cool  - Unfortunately none of the stuff they showed in comparison is being made anymore - maybe for a good reason.....  every cold fire demo I have seen is impressive. I just cannot figure out why its hard to buy ...

 
Doesn't the DJ Safety use the Cold Fire agent?

https://www.goodvibesracing.com/DJSafetyFireSystems.htm

Kind of makes me wonder if the Dupont stuff that is supposed to be the halon replacement has the same down sides as the Halon.  I just dont see that  Halon (or any gaseous agent) can be a good option for motorsports, certainly not for open cockpit vehicles. 

And yea, Tim is a funny ass dude. 

 
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Bobalos said:
@Fullthrottleguy, @L.R.S., @J Alper, or anyone else for that matter, have you looked real hard at a sand car (or desert car) that has been on fire and had an activated fire system?  

My curiosity is about the effectiveness of the system and lessons learned from the post fire evaluation. 

Also, does anyone know what alumicraft puts into their cars?  How about any other big, desert car builders?
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Old video and looks like it was filmed on a flip phone but it'll give you an idea of the nozzle spray pattern.

 
Finally sitting in front of my laptop with tons of fire suppression pics.  So here's my take-

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When I raced Class 1 Unlimited we had a Firefox system on the car.  Didn't know much about it because we bought the car with it already installed.  I say "we" but I was just a team member and eventually the Crew Chief, I had no financial interest in the team, basically, it wasn't my money, just my time.  Back on topic- The system had 4 nozzles, one on the dash and one pointed at each header.  We never did any maintenance to the system, and honestly didn't know if it even needed any?  The pressure gauge on the bottle showed in the green so we left it alone.  A year or so into racing this particular car the bottles nozzle head was stepped on and the system discharged.  This sucked because that crap got everywhere.  Good to know it worked but we had a race in 2 days.  I called Firefox and they said to ship them the bottle and they'd refill and return it to us.  They were back east or something.  We talked to our sponsor and friend Jeff Quinn (RIP) at McKenzies Performance and he said he carried the ESS system and they could be refilled DIY style.  We bought one but didn't have time to install it before the next race.  No biggie, rules didn't say you had to have ne, just two extinguishers on board.  

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This is the system in our second Class 1 car where the bottle was stepped on and discharged.  I changed it so the nozzle was out of the way and I also moved the pull handle from the drivers left knee area to the dash.  When I'm riding in the car I should be able to pull the handle.

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Dash with single handle for Firefox before I installed the ESS.

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Post race prep I got the ESS system installed.  Already having the Firefox we decided to make that system for 'in-cab' use and the new ESS for the engine area.  First thing it to throw the rolled up aluminum tubing that comes with the ESS system in the trash.  It is almost impossible to make straight.  Next is to get better P clips and most important- get Firefox nozzles.  The ESS are just a -4AN plug with a slot cut in them.  I don't feel the spray pattern is adequate and the Firefox are much better, actually machined with two slits giving a better spray.

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Tubing cutters are great but the tube needs to be reamed out after cutting.

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Takes 10 seconds and is 100% better.

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I fabbed up two brackets that would be welded to the chassis under the drivers seat.

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You can see how bent up the ESS aluminum tubing is after trying to straighten it out.  This was mock up and I replaced it with 1/8" stainless tubing.  Ignore the Passenger 2 written on the seat.  I promise this is the drivers seat.

SCH-I5355860.JPG

For the 'in-cab' system one nozzle was on the dash and I added two for the fuel cell, one on each side because we had dual filler necks.  Notice the red Firefox nozzles.

SCH-I5355786.JPG

ESS spray nozzle pointing at the dual fuel pumps.  The nozzle would be upgraded to the Firefox later on.

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One nozzle pointed at each header.

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Dual systems installed, and both would be put to use soon there after.  

 
My job in the Class 1 car as 'co-driver' is to monitor the gauges and cycle on cooling fans and lights when needed/not needed, look at the GPS to keep us on course and check the mirror for anyone trying to get around us.  My job is not to look out the front of the car, I'm not controlling where we go or how fast, that's my diver's job.  We were racing in Lucerne Valley (near Barstow) and kicking azz.  A few laps in the car backfired at 100mph and we started to loose power but then the car started running again.  We had just passed a lower class car in a dry river bed.  Just then we heard our car being hailed on the radio but I couldn't understand what they were saying.  Doing my job I checked the gauges, GPS and then the mirror.  Eff me- I saw flames.  FIRE FIRE FIRE I yelled at Travis, the driver, and I then I heard the crew on the radio yelling at us "YOU'RE ON FIRE".  No Crap.  I ripped my belts off as Travis pulled over and got the car stopped.  Travis pulled both fire suppression handles and the in-cab one started spraying our legs.  I, admittedly, panicked and wanted out of that car as fast as I could.  I never even thought about the suppression systems.  I did however, go straight to where the extinguisher was, or where I saw it last, cause it wasn't there.  The engine was on fire at the motor plate and trans but it wasn't what I'd call a huge fire.  Travis still had an extinguisher on his side and he grabbed it and did the PASS- point, aim, squeeze, sweep.  But the fire wouldn't go out.  Eff me.  I was grabbing handfuls of dirt but it was completely ineffective.  A fellow racer in a Class 11 bug saw us and stopped to give us their extinguisher.  Glad they did because that one got the fire out finally.

Turns out that when we passed the lower class car they saw us on fire and doing 100mph, obviously clueless to our peril.  They radioed to their pit to tell their crew to go tell our crew we were on fire.  They happened to be just across pit lane from us. Our crew was radioing us just as I saw the flames.  Radis are an important safety tool and can save lives.

We got towed back to our pit, had some well deserved beers and started looking for the cause of the fire.  There are no fuel lines where the fire started so it had to be something else.  Once we go the car back to the shop we found an oil line had a small pin hole leak and that's most likely the cause of the fire.  The engine oil, under pressure, was aspirated through the pin hole leak and hit the header which lit it up.  

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We got lucky and the damage was minimal, only some electrical, oil lines, plug wires and coil packs.

I noticed the Firefox system hadn't discharged even though Travis had pulled the handle.  WTF?  During tear down/prep I checked the system and found that the bottle was, in fact, still fully charged but the pin was pulled.  It didn't make sense at all.  I disassembled the bottle and found the problem- when you pull the handle there is a cable that pulls and cause a needle tip to pierce the top of the bottle (aka rupture disk), thus releasing the AFFF.  The nozzle was worn down and not sharp enough to pierce the rupture disk.  The sharp tip was worn down flat.  I can only assume the system had been in this car for several years and had countless miles of racing on it.  All the bouncing and vibrations cause the tip to get worn flat.  For this reason alone I do not like the Firefox systems and have always installed ESS systems.  To date I have installed about 15 ESS systems on cars for clients and I have one in my personal car.  But any fire suppression system is better than none at all.

 
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I was on fire at 100mph once again a year or so later.  We had acquired a new-to-us Class 1 car and went out testing.  This car had a bigger engine and dry sump oiling system.  While motoring down a graded road I saw the alarm for low oil pressure.  I yelled at Travis to shut the engine off, which he did, and we coasted to a stop.  That's when I smelled burning.  Seriously?  Again?  We both got out quickly and saw a small fire on the passenger side down near the engine plate and trans.  We used a single extinguisher to put it out.  We got towed back to pit, loaded up and headed home.  Back in the shop we found a 180* fitting for the dry sump system had cracked and was spraying engine oil out.  Once again the oil was aspirated enough and hit the header which lit it up.  We got rid of all the 180* fittings and never used them again.  

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Got lucky again- just oil lines, some electrical, plug wires and coil packs.

Here's a car that didn't get so lucky-

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This car is a twin to our Class 1 ES Motorsports car.  It caught fire at a race in Baja and burned to the ground.  100% loss.  I do not know if they had any kind of suppression system or what caused the fire, or if they crashed or it just lit up.  I do remember asking and both occupants got out safely.

 
FWIW, when I broke in the cam on my stroker motor I had a valve cover leaking a little bit of oil down on the header.  Sure enough it caught fire & ruined the finish on my brand new ceramic coated header....  😞  Mobile 1 on jet hot coating = Stains. 

in the end not a huge deal. I put it out with the extinguisher, snugged up the V/C & continued the break in.  Im glad I had a second hand that day.  but it was kind of a bummer.  I was SOO excited to have a brand new set of headers & Jet hot coated too!!!!  LOL. 

 
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On 6/4/2021 at 5:16 PM, Bobalos said:

some interesting watches on the topic  When I talked with Bob Stroud about the system I bought from him he said 80% or so of the bottles he got sent back for refills were accidental activation's.  mostly while working on the car. 

Click to expand...
 
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Been on fire once, not 100mph, but still sucks.  Blew a new to us motor in the racecar on track.  Window'd the block and dumped oil all over the header.  Hit the fire control system and hopped out.  Corner worker comes running over with an extinguisher screaming about fire (which I couldn't tell since the mess of the fire system made it hard to see from my side) and puts out the rest.  The oil had collected on our underbody aero (think skid plate) and kept on burning since it was out of range of the fire suppression.  Lesson learned: always carry backup extinguishers (race rules were either/or).  Makes good ballast and doesn't count towards your total allowable ballast.

L.R.S. said:
View attachment 6143

This car is a twin to our Class 1 ES Motorsports car.  It caught fire at a race in Baja and burned to the ground.  100% loss.  I do not know if they had any kind of suppression system or what caused the fire, or if they crashed or it just lit up.  I do remember asking and both occupants got out safely.
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BBQ next to the CarBQ is a nice touch. :biggrin:

 
Fullthrottleguy said:
not because I think a systems can put out a big fire, but because statistically you have a way better chance of making it out if you can slow down the fire, and you might just save the car if you are lucky.
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Thank you for the amazing write up and install photos! My "light bulb" moment was when I read the line above. Having not wrecked or been on fire, I always considered saving the car from burning down, not saving my own ass! You've definitely inspired me to think "safety minded" to stay uninjured/dead, and let the car burn to the ground if need be. Thx for the writeup, it's much appreciated!

 
On the same note: those headsocks many of us wear are polyester.  Which is baaaaad in a fire.  

https://www.amazon.com/RaceQuip-433991-Head-Black-Layer/dp/B06XT8T5HS/ref=asc_df_B06XT8T5HS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312089957955&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8926299751339561725&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061197&hvtargid=pla-570439140930&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/K1-Race-Gear-Balaclava-26-SLH-N/dp/B014IT38FC/ref=asc_df_B014IT38FC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312114638100&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8926299751339561725&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061197&hvtargid=pla-450954210425&psc=1

Same thing for dirt bike gloves (most are nylon/poly since it's hard to be trapped in a dirt bike fire):

https://www.amazon.com/ALPINESTARS-TECH-RACE-GLOVES-FLUORESCENT/dp/B017S0LK7G/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=sfi+gloves+alpinestars&qid=1623180699&s=automotive&sr=1-4

Since you'll probably need your hands to extract yourself from the fire, would be best if they weren't covered in melted plastic eating through your flesh...

$30-40 extra (gloves are a wash for most name brand moto gloves anyway) in the grand scheme of things isn't much, and at least you won't look like Freddy Krueger... 

 
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