CFMOTO new sport machine the Z Force Z10

Yeah it was a bit disconcerting to hear the same story (delayed December order taking date for everyone/spring delivery) from multiple dealers contacted during the first 24 hours or so at launch. Even more so when we laid our money down anyways to supposedly be first and still couldn't get a different answer (March maybe April) a full week later after pressing for accessory delivery dates as well. I simply gave up on the latter given the uncertainty and at least one unanswered email to corporate regarding the former. The southwest could currently be prioritized and every other dealer told differently as that is obviously the market which must be conquered and where all the money/hard core enthusiasts are so who knows.
Not answering to stockholders is a legitimate call well beyond the economies of scale and supply. That fact alone built much of America and that absence (private or even quasi state ownership in this case) has been the death of same as private equity decimated/served the same master.
My prediction of further increases in the short term probably stems from my own business philosophy of never leaving anything on the table and always getting what you can asap if you have a quality product in demand after the lure. There is obviously a lot of tempting dessert there to take home in a doggie bag when units start flowing. Regardless of the timing; they know full well what people will pay (now) and pretty much the size of each market segment even in a down turn. Huge advantage over those who built what will also soon be a used buyer's market albeit (hopefully) short term.
Agreed regarding both OEM spring cost sourcing/aftermarket spring installation savings and any future winch delete alone. These are the easier things to accomplish post release which absolutely drive competitors crazy.
Interesting also to see them strategize but one discreetly placed audio vendor and another with but a mirror to offer at the show versus cannon-balling it in.
Throw in all of this (cough) 'confusion' involving even a reasonably estimated delivery date and we're all definitely not ringside for somebody's first rodeo in terms of smart marketing.
 
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...what I contacted the factory regarding was any idea as to what destination charges should be running as charged to the dealers geographically.
It would also be nice to know what setup entails as some/many? Dealers will obviously be trying to squeeze all that they can out of those foolishly believing that both combined should be near the same as what whoever charges from the same place (Mexico).
Again, you can underestimate what your true costs will be whenever someone knows that you want something by being first on their list.
I didn't like my OTD price quoted at all as compared to previous rolls of the dice.
 
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Welcome to GD "SxS", thanks for jumping right in the water.

So what kind of OTD pricing was finally offered, since you say you didn't sign any deals....care to share?

Always funny how different dealers mark up there stuff, OTD is always a factor to me.
 
SxS said:
...what I contacted the factory regarding was any idea as to what destination charges should be running as charged to the dealers geographically.
It would also be nice to know what setup entails as some/many? dealers will obviously be trying to squeeze all that they can out of those foolishly believing that both combined should be near the same as what whoever charges from the same place (Mexico).
Again, you can underestimate what your true costs will be whenever someone knows that you want something by being first on their list.
I didn't like my OTD price quoted at all as compared to previous rolls of the dice.
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What was your OTD quote ?
 
A 2024 POL PRO R Premium Model at a local dealer, seen a few other dealers with the same BS. Why even have a Dealer Discount, then an Added Markup. This destination/freight is not the worst I have seen, some are over $2.5 k

MSRP: $37,499.00
POLARIS REBATE: -$2,000.00
DEALERS DISCOUNT: -$6,000.00
SALE PRICE: $29,499.00
DESTINATION/FREIGHT SURCHARGE: $1,095.00
ADDED MARKUP: $4,100.00
TOTAL: $34,694.00 + TAX, LICENSE, AND DOCUMENTATION

I blame Common Core Math for this crap LMAO
 
MSRP and what a dealer chooses to charge or added dealer fees are two different things and up to that dealer. If you feel a dealer is marking up or charging more then you like, check around. Some dealers won’t play the BS game, as they know volume is more important long term then instant profit on a single unit. Some companies control the pricing or mark up a retailer can sell a product for. Not sure if any UTV brands have done this? But it might not be a bad thing if a brand is finding their dealers are price gouging, the brand is losing market share due to it. Then again? If people are willing to pay, so be it. If not they will find it at another place.

Perfect example was a few years back. Coyne was able to buy all the rest of the Turbo S models on the west coast, because they have a good relationship with Polaris and they moved more volume then most dealers. So they get them at a better price and they moved them for a better price. And Coyne was selling them for about $1800 more than other dealers were selling the standard XP 1000 turbo.
 
"...MSRP and what a dealer chooses to charge or added dealer fees are two different things and up to that dealer. If you feel a dealer is marking up or charging more then you like, check around. Some dealers won’t play the BS game, as they know volume is more important long term then instant profit on a single unit..."

I've yet to find a dealer who went less than MSRP on anything new/exciting that they had not even seen yet and would expect that I'd get that same discounted amount added back on anyways in to the prep price (just my experience).

They gave me an OTD for the Z10/4 of $26,488.

($22,999 MSRP) = $24,379 with tax plus ship/prep/(whatever) of $2109.
That's 9.2% of MSRP with me not knowing what freight runs nowadays or how bad that shop rates have risen.
 
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SxS said:
"...MSRP and what a dealer chooses to charge or added dealer fees are two different things and up to that dealer. If you feel a dealer is marking up or charging more then you like, check around. Some dealers won’t play the BS game, as they know volume is more important long term then instant profit on a single unit..."

I've yet to find a dealer who went less than MSRP on anything new/exciting that they had not even seen yet and would expect that I'd get that same discounted amount added back on anyways in to the prep price (just my experience).

They gave me an OTD for the Z10/4 of $26,488.

($22,999 MSRP) = $24,379 with tax plus ship/prep/(whatever) of $2109.
That's 9.2% of MSRP with me not knowing what freight runs nowadays or how bad that shop rates have risen.
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Well I guess that’s the price of trying to be the first to have the new model or any brand car. And only the dealer can control the added BS charges. Try to negotiate, if not try the next dealer, or wait a few months and see once the initial hype has died down, maybe they will be more interested in negotiating.

But this has nothing to do with the manufacture raising the price, that’s all the dealerships doing.

My previous UTV’s I have not paid more than MSRP, but I’ve not tried to buy the first of a new model right when it came out either. My BIL got a smoking deal on a AC XX at the end of last year.
 
NIKAL said:
Well I guess that’s the price of trying to be the first to have the new model or any brand car. And only the dealer can control the added BS charges. Try to negotiate, if not try the next dealer, or wait a few months and see once the initial hype has died down, maybe they will be more interested in negotiating.

But this has nothing to do with the manufacture raising the price, that’s all the dealerships doing.

My previous UTV’s I have not paid more than MSRP, but I’ve not tried to buy the first of a new model right when it came out either. My BIL got a smoking deal on a AC XX at the end of last year.
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No argument here yet I have always had trouble simply waiting to have more fun while others were already out there having it.
Your example of the bargain AC XX in '23 kind of hurts. I always figured that I would be more than satisfied with that car since the day that I saw a guy roll it down a hill with little significant damage just after the first one launched.
I keep coming back to it yet I still think that this car will be hard to find at this price in '25/beyond and maybe period if this delivery uncertainty doesn't get sorted out. A company can talk about releasing new models of whatever every six months (especially larger cars) yet immediately ramping up those kind of production/spare part numbers beyond even 18,000 units initially inside a (relatively new) business endeavor is a tall order.
I believe in this car and those behind it from just what I've gathered on video.
Yet I'm not taking my chances on waiting around for everyone else to discover that this car might be more than worth the money for what it brings to the table in this market.
I'll go out on a limb even further to say that I'm not all that worried about what troubles CFMOTO may have with this car initially beyond the obvious.
At $20K-23K a whole lot of us are blessed to say that.
That latter number of eager potentially patient beta testers will go way down as CF's more expensive models sure to take far more abuse are released.
 
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About all we can say at this point is that no other seasoned and/or legitimate manufacturer has ever attempted to release a potentially ground breaking SxS (or many) using this present hold off on all orders/who knows if you'll ever get one (or if so when) release strategy.
And it just may work.
 
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...with the above said(?)
It is pretty disconcerting when Nikal is told one story from those supposedly in the know..I tell everyone up here another completely opposite from what little that I do..and nobody else either knows the truth, cares to or is interested enough to put down a deposit themselves and/or give a rip as to when anyone will take one home.
This could be the right car at the wrong time for even entry level cars in this economy.
 
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Some interesting CFMOTO patent information. This looks to be a patent drawing showing how a future intercooler would be incorporated into the engine platform. From some numbers on the patent, and from someone smarter than me telling me this. It looks as if the engine is capable of 215bhp, which I’m told would be like 212hp. If this is accurate I’m sure it would be a model progression to get to there, knowing they are currently claiming 143hp with low boost and no intercooler.

IMG_3507.jpegIMG_3509.jpeg
 
What I see above for many possibly waiting for the other shoe to drop (future first time customers, competitors and folks such as EVP) is not a whole new engine(?) but the gain of significant ponies (fun) and a whole new car (wider/better suspended?) for what might likely be the same cost or lower of what it will currently cost you to modify the engine/hope for the best given no obvious design accommodations for additional HP in your current car. I haven't kept up but I believe that none of these aftermarket tunes are any cheaper than better suspension was for the first XPs.
212 HP is pretty much double what this sport started out at not that long ago.
If the price for this next car with even half of the features that the Z10 is boasting of today is (?)...how would this not change the face of the sport?

I love these guys who are licking their chops/wanting to go out and beat the crap out of these things to apparently prove something in terms of 'value' or who knows what.
Most of us want to just go out and have some fun at 100HP (the old standard), 200 HP or whatever we can afford within the obvious design limits of any glorified golf cart with a big engine in it (see the drawings above). This sport is about pushing limits in the weight versus HP realm (period). If you have the money to do it (cough) 'right' then good for you that God has blessed you to do so.
The majority rest of us out here are no different than the hot-rodders of old picking something out of a junkyard not even close to being designed for what we are dreaming it to be.
If CFmoto is getting the 'unwashed' there a lot quicker (safely) with these stunning 21st century designs at our necessary price point in '24/'25(?).. then God Bless them for helping the little guy experience the post war tinkering era all over again.

(Edit): Be aware that you might just have to get your hands dirty, think a little in terms of your car's value proposition not to mention design limitations and yeah fix things/make them better should one ignore the latter realities.
 
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...for anyone who is counting or cares; that's a 2/3 boost in HP for the next(?) CF model as speculated on in post #33.
My own current interest in the Z10 concerning HP:

143 HP supported by sufficient suspension is plenty of power for most anyone and I don't care where you ride when I say that. Is 200, 250 or 300 better(?)..of course it is. Are you able to use the later #s where you ride(?)..probably not if most would admit it. If I want more(?)..it appears that I can indeed get a lot more with likely not as much spent as previous (hopefully).

This 3 cylinder is more or less 'detuned' and not the relative mess that one creates when pushing any motor to its limitations. I like that.

'Over powering' necessarily narrower width machines in the tight/steep/crowded environments that many of us ride in leads to bad choices involving immovable objects, gravity and other cars.

There is a definite detachment from the overall driving experience as extra HP necessarily compensates for substantial weight gains and wider/longer design changes.

I am just as guilty as the next in ignoring the above while convincing myself that I instead want whatever car that succeeds the Z10 due to posts such as #33.
 
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Didn't see a CFMoto at the Offroad Expo, nor any Speed UTVs
 
If you're only using vendors to show them off...and the vendors to date have been limited to a speaker(?) and one mirror....how does that show stand up to the SSSS in terms of vendors?

I'm still waiting for the question in post #36 to be addressed regarding comparative patent submissions.
How many (besides those mentioned above) are going to bother with a 64" car at 143 HP if the drawing above indicates anything else at 212 for likely far less money than any (ho-hum) 2025 model already announced???
The Z10 is old news before it's even released which has been alluded to several times now by different sources. We also know full well that somebody somewhere can dig up/compare those two frame drawings/comment intelligently upon both.
 
SxS said:
If you're only using vendors to show them off...and the vendors to date have been limited to a speaker(?) and one mirror....how does that show stand up to the SSSS in terms of vendors?

I'm still waiting for the question in post #36 to be addressed regarding comparative patent submissions.
How many (besides those mentioned above) are going to bother with a 64" car at 143 HP if the drawing above indicates anything else at 212 for likely far less money than any (ho-hum) 2025 model already announced???
The Z10 is old news before it's even released which has been alluded to several times now by different sources. We also know full well that somebody somewhere can dig up/compare those two frame drawings/comment intelligently upon both.
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What are you talking about with using Speaker & mirror vendors to show the car off? For one it sounded like CFMOTO was not planning on being at the show this year. Two both the Speaker & Mirror company will be “Factory” options you can buy with your car. After the unveiling of the car, they asked these two partnered vendors if they would like to show a car in each booth. It was very low key and sort of last minute, as I know when a car was delivered to one of the vendors. Dont try to over analyze it.

I’m confused as what you’re talking about wanting to see another frame? It’s the same Z10 frame. The picture is to illustrate the inner cooler mounting within the chassis for the patent.

Just to clarify again. There is only one chassis for the Z10. Currently it comes at 64 inches wide with a turbo & no inner cooler. I was told the chassis was designed to fit wider suspension components for possible future versions of the Z10. From the patent pictures it looks like they are preparing for a future version to have an inner cooler, which leads everyone to know they will be turning up the boost and creating more HP in the future.

Try not to make this any more complicated then it is.
 
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Ok since I posted the inner cooler patent pictures, how about this? Looks like CFMOTO will also be getting into the closed cab overlanding type vehicle like what Polaris did with the Xpedition series.

IMG_3505.jpeg

Looking at this picture it definitely looks like what Polaris is doing making a full enclosed cab. The air filter location leads me to believe this will have the 3 cylinder engine, but I’d assume probably not Turbo’ed? Also the rear suspension throws an interesting twist into it, if the patent drawing is fully accurate?

IMG_3506.jpeg

Also here’s a drawing showing the cooling pack which looks to have a condenser infront of the radiator. This would also confirm a closed cab vehicle is probably coming at some point.
 
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