Midair Collision - DC - American Airlines and Blackhawk

As a controller, comm with helos is always shit. If I have both on radar (or even procedural w/SA), I'd be directing the fixed wing regardless. No idea what the circumstances actually where but it sucks all the way around.
 
What this will come down to is a series of small errors, that by themselves would not be such a disaster, but when combined together....we have a tragedy. Think about how many times small mistakes on our parts have had us come close.....but we made it because.....that final nail didn't land. The moonless night, training with goggles, understaffed ATC, Overcrowded airspace......I think likely the only people without fault in this are going to end up being the flight crew of the plane. Just sad all around.
 
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JDMeister said:
The news indicated the "ATC" support for the "DC" airport was 19 people down,
and the one person was directing Helo on one channel, and jet on another.
They both could not hear the other channels.
There's talk about the DEI hiring fiasco. They overlooked White ATC certified
controllers because they were over qualified. WTF?"
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Approach is usually on a different channel. This isn’t abnormal.

Watched the ATC videos/radio. To me: ATC called out the CRJ to the 60, but no direction or distance, just that it was on approach to runway 33, which put the onus on the 60 to remember where 33 is and what its approach was.

60’s operating ceiling was 200’, crash happened at 350-400’ ish. 60 was course steady at 200’, but appeared to slow and gain altitude on approach to CRJ’s flight path. I assume pilot realized there might be another jet nearby, and backed off of the cyclic while not backing off collective and gained altitude into CRJ’s flight path.

Been 29 years since my dreams of flyboy-hood were dashed by nearsightedness, so excuse my terms.

What says PFM-boy
@Mac?
 
Rockwood said:
Approach is usually on a different channel. This isn’t abnormal.

Watched the ATC videos/radio. To me: ATC called out the CRJ to the 60, but no direction or distance, just that it was on approach to runway 33, which put the onus on the 60 to remember where 33 is and what its approach was.

60’s operating ceiling was 200’, crash happened at 350-400’ ish. 60 was course steady at 200’, but appeared to slow and gain altitude on approach to CRJ’s flight path. I assume pilot realized there might be another jet nearby, and backed off of the cyclic while not backing off collective and gained altitude into CRJ’s flight path.

Been 29 years since my dreams of flyboy-hood were dashed by nearsightedness, so excuse my terms.

What says PFM-boy
@Mac?
Click to expand...

There are lots of "controllers" you talk to, especially in busy areas. This area is Class Bravo airspace and has a lot of restrictions and requirements to transit it. Based on the proximity to the airport, they could have both been talking to tower or the airliner on approach and helo on tower. Who knows. It's not uncommon if one controller is busy or getting behind, they switch to another. Getting wrapped up in "what is the standard" in air traffic control is not the big picture on this. I will say as an experienced pilot, you know if a controller is on their game or not. Thinking that ATC has your back is the first thing that will get you killed. Regardless of regulations and flight rules, THE NUMBER ONE RULE...pilot judgment. You make calls to maintain flight safety at all costs. Never trust anyone other than yourself. I used to always say the guy sitting next to you is the first in line to kill you. NEVER trust anything you can't control.

The pilot's currency is in question. They are saying this was a training/currency flight for "senior pilots". So 2 pieces there. What currency? Was it night currency? Google currency? Airframe currency? We don't know. There is a report saying it was a check flight. That always adds stress to the flight and crew coordination. "Senior pilot"...some of the WORST pilots are senior pilots that only fly for currency so that they keep their flight pay. I hated doing these flights. Yes, these people have time but they have a false sense of experience vs proficiency. Then add in the add factor of a junior pilot telling a senior pilot "NO." Yes, it's a big problem. I used to make sure if I was scheduling this, that the pilot in command was a strong one and had no issue taking control.

Next...the altitude deviation. Gaining or losing 200 feet in an H60 is nothing. It can happen fast. It can also happen without you knowing if you aren't maintaining a proper scan. Being on goggles breaks down your scan. You have a narrow field of view, you have no depth perception, and it requires a lot of head movement. Still, in a busy area, this is no excuse.

The military is never going to tell you what happened. They are never going to say what the breakdown was. They feel some "need" to protect the dead, especially if it's a senior person. I will also say, the military stopped focusing on pilot proficiency 20 years ago and focused everything on tactics. They spent all this money on new systems and wanted those new systems to get used. We relaxed standards and even changed emergency procedures to adapt to lower pilot standards. It was shameful.

I stand by my first statement, this was 100% pilot/crew error on the part of the helicopter.
 
Thanks @Mac. I assume there will be some definite changes around this airport. I flew into DCA weekly for 6 months on a project, it's a shit show. Approach changes, 57 gajillion bases nearby all with helicopters or fixed wing, executive helicopters, no-fly zones out the yin-yang, etc. It's a super busy area.
 
Rockwood said:
Thanks @Mac. I assume there will be some definite changes around this airport. I flew into DCA weekly for 6 months on a project, it's a shit show. Approach changes, 57 gajillion bases nearby all with helicopters or fixed wing, executive helicopters, no-fly zones out the yin-yang, etc. It's a super busy area.
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Not sure about "changes" as the area is "established". This was piss poor planning 50 years ago.

For some reason, no one builds an airport with any foresight. Every freaking airport gets built and people flock to it. If you want to create urban sprawl, build an airport. Then give it a few years and people will complain about airplane noise...smh. Yeah, lots of experience with these turds too.
 
Mac said:
ATC...definitely screwed up, but they were calling out.

Having flown military aircraft, the H-60 specially (same helicopter), depending on the life of the aircraft and condition, radios can be really bad and hard to hear. It is reported the helicopter was on goggles. Kind of crazy to me being on goggles in a densely populated area. Lots of distractions and plumming. Let's not forget, you only have 9-11 degrees field of view with googles. An aircraft at your "90" would be hard to see. Also, what was the currency of the crew, quals, etc... Things that are rarely discussed, were any of the crew involved in personal issues, crew issues, etc. These are HUGE. I've done investigations were the crew were fighting...and lost situational awareness and crashed. It happens.

I don't have a lot of blame for the airliner. They were on final and focused on the landing, as they should have been. Not sure if they had collision avoidance gear or not. Not all military aircraft have collision avoidance due to budget, age of aircraft, etc...

I'm sticking with helicopter crew human factors on this one with a supporting factor of ATC involvement and awareness. In the end, it was people that got other people killed.
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I want to quantify this...Yes, ATC screwed up, but there is a big difference in "screwed up" and "at fault". It almost always boils down to "who could have prevented this?" In this case, I still focus on the helicopter.
 
Mac said:
Not sure about "changes" as the area is "established". This was piss poor planning 50 years ago.

For some reason, no one builds an airport with any foresight. Every freaking airport gets built and people flock to it. If you want to create urban sprawl, build an airport. Then give it a few years and people will complain about airplane noise...smh. Yeah, lots of experience with these turds too.
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I assume flight paths, operating procedure, etc, will be re-racked. Will it fix everything? Probably not.

As for the airport location... I'm sure the power-players were put off having to drive somewhere to get to their jet... That's just inconvenient...
 
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Rockwood said:
60’s operating ceiling was 200’, crash happened at 350-400’ ish. 60 was course steady at 200’, but appeared to slow and gain altitude on approach to CRJ’s flight path. I assume pilot realized there might be another jet nearby, and backed off of the cyclic while not backing off collective and gained altitude into CRJ’s flight path.
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ATC is reciving a lot of criticism and may have been able to do things better but this is WHY the collision happened. Why the 60 climbed above his 200' ceiling early we will probably never know.
 
Rockwood said:
I assume flight paths, operating procedure, etc, will be re-racked. Will it fix everything? Probably not.

As for the airport location... I'm sure the power-players were put off having to drive somewhere to get to their jet... That's just inconvenient...
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During the early reporting on this accident it was mentioned that there were plans to shut down this airport but Congress would not allow it because the idiots liked the close proximity of the airport to downtown. It was too convenient for them.
 
THD said:
During the early reporting on this accident it was mentioned that there were plans to shut down this airport but Congress would not allow it because the idiots liked the close proximity of the airport to downtown. It was too convenient for them.
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I somewhat agree with them: it’s where I usually flew into for meetings there.

What definitely shouldn’t be happening is direct flights from everywhere. It’s not a hub, nor is it suited to be one. Send those Wichita flights into Dulles.
 
Another aircraft went down and apparently struck a mall in Philadelphia. The video the news is showing it has done a lot of damage and a lot of fire. They just announced that at least 6 killed. Sounds like it was a medical flight, 2 drs, patient and relative, and two pilots. Damn!
 
Rockwood said:
Thanks @Mac. I assume there will be some definite changes around this airport. I flew into DCA weekly for 6 months on a project, it's a shit show. Approach changes, 57 gajillion bases nearby all with helicopters or fixed wing, executive helicopters, no-fly zones out the yin-yang, etc. It's a super busy area.
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Welcome to LAS, VGT & HSH TRSA on the weekend!
 
Anybody hear bout the Jet Wambulace crash?
One guy owns the company.
Previous crash.
Medical flights may not be tightly controlled, they just fly here.
Tail number was "Cloned" and attempted to fly in, D.E.A. caught them.
What could possibly go wrong?
 
JDMeister said:
Anybody hear bout the Jet Wambulace crash?
One guy owns the company.
Previous crash.
Medical flights may not be tightly controlled, they just fly here.
Tail number was "Cloned" and attempted to fly in, D.E.A. caught them.
What could possibly go wrong?
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Something big time went wrong for Lear 55 to lawn dart like it did. The flight was a good hearted flight to take a kid home for recovery. SAD ending.
 
Wash 10 Crew said:
Something big time went wrong for Lear 55 to lawn dart like it did. The flight was a good hearted flight to take a kid home for recovery. SAD ending.
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I read that they had a gurney not strapped down properly and the movement from takeoff could have caused the accident. I’m sure that’s just speculation.
 
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