Thoughts - Upgrade, or new build?

acefuture

acefuture

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Interested on some input on my car. I "built" my Desert Dynamics from frame up about 5 years ago with my pops. Had a giant build thread on here that unfortunately got lost, but oh well. It was a fun learning experience and the car came out great. It's a 4 seat sand car chassis with some upgraded dual sport parts. I welded in a few structural supports, and dropped in a bone stock LS1 and 2D. I've since put a new body on it, 2" hollows and new uprights, tatum hubs, 33 spline microstubs, upgraded to larger heims, bolts, suspension, and much more. The car has been great for me, but now I'm thinking about an upgrade. We do predominantly 90% of our trips to the dunes. But lately in the past 2 years we've been having a great time down in Baja. Just got back from a great 4 day trip. But, I keep having to fix things. I know, it's the nature of the experiment. But it has me thinking about an upgrade. I don't drive the car soft. At all. I'm hard on the steering brake, hard on the skinny pedal, and hard through the whoops. I've had to rebuild my 2D 4 times since i've built it, and now it's gotta go in again for another rebuild since I blew it over the weekend in San Felipe. This has me thinking of upgrading to an S4. Obviously there's a trickle down effect. Mounts > Trans > shifter > linkage > CVs > Axels > Hubs > Move the motor back > potentially weld a new engine cage, etc etc. I can do all the work including fabwork myself. I'd also like to ditch the back seats and potentially do a 3 seater or maybe just 2. But is it worth it? Or do I go buy a more purpose built 2 seat. In a perfect world I go pick up an Alumicraft 2 seat but it's just not in the cards for me at the moment. The other option is building another car frame up, but garage space is not ample for my current situation. So do I sell the car as is (once the 2D is repaired) and go buy something with and S4? Or bite the bullet and start building my car for the S4? Or just shutup, cryoheat the 2D internals, and keep driving it knowing i'll have a trans repair build more often than i'd like?

Couple photos from the last 2 trips:

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That's a lot of options...I've always tried to decide what will be the most cost effective and what I'll be the happiest with long term...if you really want a two seat, it might be more cost-effective long term to leave your car as is, and eventually purchasing a two seat and upgrading it to an S4/5 on it (if needed) in example...vs upgrading your car knowing one day you'll build or buy a two seat. 20k ish to upgrade your current car is 1/2 ish way to a nice two seat...that's a lot of $
That's how I argue with myself at least.

Two seats rule. :)

 
wesinls said:
That's a lot of options...I've always tried to decide what will be the most cost effective and what I'll be the happiest with long term...if you really want a two seat, it might be more cost-effective long term to leave your car as is, and eventually purchasing a two seat and upgrading it to an S4/5 on it (if needed) in example...vs upgrading your car knowing one day you'll build or buy a two seat. 20k ish to upgrade your current car is 1/2 ish way to a nice two seat...that's a lot of $
That's how I argue with myself at least.

Two seats rule. :)
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I am a big fan of 2 seats. I don’t dislike the geometry of my car and the way it dunes, but this past season I did a lot of suspension work including a revalve and respring. But the way the car handles with just me is drastically different than with 4 full size guys in it. So I’d really like to take a couple out of the equation and truly dial it in. 
 

In terms of cost effectiveness though, $20k maybe half of a nice 2 seat, but not half of something that would do better than my car with an S4 upgrade. So that’s where my predicament is. 

 
I lean towards upgrading tranny. I've been involved in a lot of sandrail purchases and almost every car that was turn key still needed a sizable dollar amount to work the bugs out and get to our standards. You already know what your car has and how old the parts are. In my opinion, DD makes a really well balanced handling car with a stout chassis so you better make sure you know what car your buying next or you might be disappointed.

 
Great sandrail and you've put a lot of time and effort into it. You've rebuilt that 2D 4 times in 5 years I've rebuilt my Albins AGB twice in 5 years. I'd guess we're pretty close to the same cost and my car weighs 3500lbs and has 630hp to the tires. We have similar driving styles. Eff it, I'm having fun. 

My first 'real' sandrail I built in 2008 had a V6 and 091. Sold it in 2014 and bought my prerunner with an LS/Albins in 2015. I skipped a lot of Mendeola headaches.

Sell it and buy a prerunner if you plan to keep going to Baja. 

 
JM PRO said:
I lean towards upgrading tranny. I've been involved in a lot of sandrail purchases and almost every car that was turn key still needed a sizable dollar amount to work the bugs out and get to our standards. You already know what your car has and how old the parts are. In my opinion, DD makes a really well balanced handling car with a stout chassis so you better make sure you know what car your buying next or you might be disappointed.
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You make a great point. Let’s say I value my car at $43k (random guess on market value) and tack on the $20k I’d spend on a trans upgrade. Is there a 2 seat on the market that would accomplish what I want at $63k? Maybe. But I know myself. I’d put a ton of time and potentially money into making it mine and having the peace of mind. 

L.R.S. said:
Great sandrail and you've put a lot of time and effort into it. You've rebuilt that 2D 4 times in 5 years I've rebuilt my Albins AGB twice in 5 years. I'd guess we're pretty close to the same cost and my car weighs 3500lbs and has 630hp to the tires. We have similar driving styles. Eff it, I'm having fun. 

My first 'real' sandrail I built in 2008 had a V6 and 091. Sold it in 2014 and bought my prerunner with an LS/Albins in 2015. I skipped a lot of Mendeola headaches.

Sell it and buy a prerunner if you plan to keep going to Baja. 
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Thanks Jeff. I’d definitely like to make Baja a once a year thing. But I dune WAY more than that. In a perfect world I have 2 cars, but that’s just not feasible haha. Ironically (maybe not) 2 of my last blown 2Ds have happened in Baja. Baja seems to always win. 
 

I REALLY like what alumicraft is doing with their 2 seat 10 car chassis with an LS in it. @Reece Pettersen has had 2 in the family and his dads car (blue car) is perfect for both Baja and Duning. Just not in my wheelhouse, yet. 
 

F99BD181-EC47-41C0-9D11-59419B720C07.jpeg

 
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Suggest you make a complete parts list with costs to do the upgrade. Doubt you will get an S4 in there for $20k. I’m going through similar upgrade decision. Trans, clutch, shifter, cable, 934 CV’s, axles, hubs, shift indicator, and other misc stuff. I’ll bet you are closer to $25k just in parts. Likely a bit more than that. 

 
acefuture said:
You make a great point. Let’s say I value my car at $43k (random guess on market value) and tack on the $20k I’d spend on a trans upgrade. Is there a 2 seat on the market that would accomplish what I want at $63k? Maybe. But I know myself. I’d put a ton of time and potentially money into making it mine and having the peace of mind. 

Thanks Jeff. I’d definitely like to make Baja a once a year thing. But I dune WAY more than that. In a perfect world I have 2 cars, but that’s just not feasible haha. Ironically (maybe not) 2 of my last blown 2Ds have happened in Baja. Baja seems to always win. 
 

I REALLY like what alumicraft is doing with their 2 seat 10 car chassis with an LS in it. @Reece Pettersen has had 2 in the family and his dads car (blue car) is perfect for both Baja and Duning. Just not in my wheelhouse, yet. 
 

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I'll text you. 

 
Dockmaster said:
Suggest you make a complete parts list with costs to do the upgrade. Doubt you will get an S4 in there for $20k. I’m going through similar upgrade decision. Trans, clutch, shifter, cable, 934 CV’s, axles, hubs, shift indicator, and other misc stuff. I’ll bet you are closer to $25k just in parts. Likely a bit more than that. 
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Already did. It was a total of $29k. But with that I can sell the parts I have including newly rebuilt 2D for about $9k 

 
Far from the powerplant and tranny you want...but...

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We just swapped an S4 into a friend's DD: it's actually not hard since there's enough room ahead of the CV cups to accommodate the trans (motor stayed in the same spot-ish).  Total cost after selling the trans was ~$25k with us doing all of the labor and Shock Talk reworking the suspension after adding a bunch of weight out back.  In the end, you get an overbuilt drivetrain, real clutch and starter setup (with the Chevy bellhousing) and the room to grow the motor a bit to make duning more fun in the future.  

While it's apart: beef up the engine cage a bit.  The beefier trans (and eventual engine upgrades) will stress things.

Buying a new buggy means inheriting someone else's problems.  Unless it's someone who built something they rarely used, or the owner passed away, you're most likely inheriting something someone either got tired of, couldn't afford, or wasn't enough car for them.  Chances are the $63k car will need a bunch of sorting anyway before it's yours...

I'm sure Pops' involvement has some value too.

 
Rockwood said:
We just swapped an S4 into a friend's DD: it's actually not hard since there's enough room ahead of the CV cups to accommodate the trans (motor stayed in the same spot-ish).  Total cost after selling the trans was ~$25k with us doing all of the labor and Shock Talk reworking the suspension after adding a bunch of weight out back.  In the end, you get an overbuilt drivetrain, real clutch and starter setup (with the Chevy bellhousing) and the room to grow the motor a bit to make duning more fun in the future.  

While it's apart: beef up the engine cage a bit.  The beefier trans (and eventual engine upgrades) will stress things.

Buying a new buggy means inheriting someone else's problems.  Unless it's someone who built something they rarely used, or the owner passed away, you're most likely inheriting something someone either got tired of, couldn't afford, or wasn't enough car for them.  Chances are the $63k car will need a bunch of sorting anyway before it's yours...

I'm sure Pops' involvement has some value too.
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Really solid insight thanks. The project doesn’t seem to terribly cumbersome which is a plus. We’ll see. I’m gonna put some feelers out for a 2 seat and if I don’t find what I’m looking for in the next couple months I’ll dive in. 

 
acefuture said:
Really solid insight thanks. The project doesn’t seem to terribly cumbersome which is a plus. We’ll see. I’m gonna put some feelers out for a 2 seat and if I don’t find what I’m looking for in the next couple months I’ll dive in. 
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I have a close friend who more or less has your exact car and did the S4 swap...if you ever want to look at it let me know. 2008ish DD...

image.png

 
For the Chassis, think it is a great desert car, i feel just making a couple changes will make a huge difference,  not sure if it needs box arms, but i have one rear trailing arm left from Dave that i am making CAD prints from, will share the file if someone needs one, and have a dual sport in the shop if someone needs pics, depending on bulk head i would maybe do some updates, and it is pretty easy adding a S4,  with pricing now not sure if i would ever purchase a S4D,  the S4 had the same gears as a S4 

one of the disappointments in the S4D is it has the same Diff,  if you had bigger spider gears then yes go for the D,  but not much difference in the New extended tooth s4 to the S4D in my opinion, 

The desert dynamics has some odd quarks, it was made for the Desert, so the rear motor/trans area is higher than most sandcars,  the bottom of the car is almost flat, and what i mean by that is the trailing arm tube sits right on the frame rails, it does not dip down like other cars  --------- so my point is, if you go to a D in a Desert-Dynamics you loose a lot of CV angle,  

I have owned a couple of DD cars, 1 buggy work, 1 Sand Works, 1 Sand Car, 1 Dual Sport, 1 Prerunner, and just purchased another Prerunner with radius roof,  

If you do a D trans it will need Mid-boards or outboards, if you keep the S4 you can run Micro Stubs, something to think about, 

 
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