Super C Vs Class A DP Drivability

[tjZ06]

@tjZ06 Wrote up about this topic before the crash- I believe he stepped up his budget and went with a Newmar product that had a feature that made the coach more pleasurable to drive and was less tiring.

I've had a few RVs.  I started with a '09 Fleetwood Southwind 34G (Gas, Class A), then a '17 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 (Diesel Pusher Class A), then went back to a 5'er for a minute, then a '21 Thor Magnitude SV34 (Diesel Super C, factory 4x4 on the F550 platform), and now back in a '19 Newmar Mountain Aire 4018 (Diesel Pusher, Class A).

I hated driving the Southwind.  I had upgraded sway bars, shocks, track bars, etc. etc. etc. and it was the higher GVWR chassis with the 22.5" wheels and factory front track bar (lower GVWR units didn't have the front bar, IIRC).  It was a white-knuckle drive above 60 MPH, period.  Wind?  Trucks?  Effing horrible.  My wife learned not to even try to talk to me when I was driving it... and I'd find myself sitting with my feet flat-foot spread out like I was bracing myself for a sumo wrestler to charge.  It was actually better with a trailer on it as far as sway and wondering around... but just didn't have the power for a relatively heavy flatbed with 2 RZRs on it (it had the later, better 3-valve headed V10 and a full Banks kit).  And to be clear, I'm not just a timid driver or something.  With the 5'ers I had before the Southwind I'd comfortably tow with one hand, sending work emails, eating a sammich, etc.  Same with my later coaches.  Perhaps there was something especially wrong with THAT particular coach, but I did EVERYTHING you can do (all the parts I mentioned and more, alignments, attempts at corner-balancing, etc. etc. etc).  

After that, we got the Dutch Star.  Here's the day we traded the Southwind in on it (funny to see the Dutchy with the polished wheels and all the badges still): 

Later it got a bit more gangster: 

And I towed a 20' stacker with it: 

Even took my '67 Camaro to Glamis with it, cuz that's what you do right (truth be told I was selling it and met the buyer there):

To say driving it was night and day different would be an exceptional understatement.  The Dutchy had 315 tires all around, all 8 of 'em vs. 6 245s or whatever the Southwind had and weighed literally twice as much.  I think the extra contact patch and weight just helped a ton.  Then, there is Newmar's Comfort Drive (what @Jrauscher1 was referring to, I believe).  If you've never driven a Newmar and are considering a new coach, do yourself a favor and try one.  Comfort Drive makes a HUGe difference.  Google and the YouTubers will have plenty of videos about what it does, but the short version is it compensates for road crown, cross-winds, etc. for you so you're not holding that "tension" in the wheel.  It's also adjustable so you can spin the front tires with one finger when parking.  

The Dutch Star had the 8.9L ISL at 450/1250 HP/TQ and with the stacker I'd describe it as "just adequate."  Even though it was a 40' model (40' 9" real length) it was heavy, around 40k lbs itslef and over 52k lbs with the stacker:



This was with my 2-seat Potter car (prob 2600-2700lbs), a 2 seat XPT (prob 1800lbs), lots of tools/spares, but no fuel or water onboard the stacker yet.  The "drive axle" weight is of course actually the drive axle AND the tag axle:



Climbing truly steep grades (like the steepest parts of Highway 80 going up to Donner Summit in Northern, CA headed towards Reno) it could only pull the top of 3rd gear, which was around 37 MPH with the stacker.  It had the power to get back to the top of 3rd if I got slowed down by rigs, but couldn't hold 4th if I let it shift.  That said, the fully loaded rigs are literally doing 15 MPH in those stretches, so 37 isn't so bad. 

I should have kept that rig, but we decided to downsize for a bit, so I sold it and got a 5'er again.  That only lasted about a year before we missed having a "drivable" too much (we do a lot of trips OTHER than Glamis/toy trips so we love having a regular RV for that stuff.  We were still way up in Northern CA and I had myself convinced I was going to stay away from sand rails and only do an occasional Glamis trip, so we decided on a smaller, 4x4 RV.  I'll pick that up in the next post... 

 

[tjZ06]

The Super C we decided on was a 2021 Thor Magnitude (same as an Omni) SV34. 









I had really wanted an Isata 5 28SS because it was even shorter, but it just brought WAY too many compromises.  We loved a LOT of things about that SV34.  The floorplan really made the most out of the length.  I loved the outdoor kitchen.  And it had things like a King Bed that were on our "must haves" (and the 28SS did not have).  One the downside the tanks were just too damn small, and Thor quality is suspect at best.  But, this isn't so much a post about features and floorplans, as how they drive.  

In short, it drove GREAT.  It really was relaxing to drive, just like driving a pickup.  Without a trailer it was downright quick (for an RV) and even with a trailer it was sufficiently fast and would hold 50+ up anything.  The new 6.7 PSDs and the 10-speed are an insanely nice combo, and the 4.88 rear gears helped even more.  I got my trailer dialed-in just right for the RV and used a chain-style weight distribution and anti-sway device and it worked perfectly. 











In fact, the first time I pulled the trailer with the Thor was the weekend that the last big round of wildfires started in CA.  It was crazy windy, in big gusts.  Still, this thing was a 1-hander, no-stress drive.  Had I kept it I wanted to remove the front fascia to expose the stock front bumper that was still under it, probably black out the wheels like my Dutch Star, remove some badges and things like that.  I would have liked to add more batteries, and better seal the battery compartment under the steps (it's open to the ground, and just has the thin steps separating it from the cabin so it seemed like 80% of the road noise came through there).  I also wanted to find room for more fresh and grey water.  In fact, there was a TON of open space under the chassis... but figuring out transfer/pumping would have been the catch AND it was already very much up against GVWR limitations (if you care about that sort of thing).  

I would absolutely recommend one, or even buy one again if the circumstances were right.  However, I decided to buy another sand rail, so we decided we'd spend a bunch more time in Glamis again.  Why was that a problem?  Well we were still up in Norcal, and with my work schedule and stuff burning 1-2 days each way to get to/from Glamis just doesn't work.  My wife had spent seasons in G before and is a total trooper about just staying out in the dunes when I have to fly back for work.  But, this time we decided we wanted to buy a spot here: https://www.motorcoachcountryclub.com/ and that requires a Class A.  We had rented there many times when we had the Dutch Star, and we just friggin' love it.  

Going back to an A I knew exactly what I wanted.  I wanted a 40' Mountain Aire in the 4018 floorplan.  It's basically the exact same rig as the Dutch Star we had (exact floorplan) but on the bigger/better chassis with the bigger motor and trans.  My Dutch Star was on a Freightliner, but Spartans were optional.  On the DS though, if you went Spartan you got the K2.  And of course it had the aforementioned 450/1250 HP/TQ 8.9L ISL.  With the 4018 Mountain Aire you get the same length and weight (or at least close) coach but on the Spartan K3 chassis (same chassis they use all the way up through the King Aire) and the 11.9L 500/1695 HP/TQ ISX.  They only started doing a 40' MA (vs. 45') in '18 and by '20 they made changes to the floorplan we didn't like, then in '21 they went back to the better bathroom layout but had bumped the overall length up a foot.  Being in CA we liked the 40' models (in the MA the true length is 40' 10" vs. the 40' 9" on the DS) since you can get the *right* 20' stacker behind it and still be just under 65' (I was 64' 10-3/4" with the DS and stacker in the pics above).  

As gangster as our DS looked, we decided for the desert lifestyle we wanted lighter colors this time.  We were searching high and low, across the whole country and finally found the right coach within 5 miles of our house.  It's a 2019 that only had 7600 miles on it.  It was owned by an older gentleman who ran into health issues, and had only gone on a handful of trips (including going back to Indiana once to have all the new-coach-bugs worked out). 











And here are a couple shots in the RV spot we bought at the MCC:





(both the coach and my truck were filthy having just got in from Glamis that day) 

As expected, we love this coach.  It drives every bit as good as the DS, but perhaps a bit smoother (maybe that's the Spartan, maybe that's the weight) and more stable (maybe that's the 365 front tires).  I actually haven't towed with it yet, but I'm sure the 50/445 HP/TQ will help.  Obviously the HP isn't a big difference, but I think the torque will help it when it upshifts into 4th on a grade pulling a trailer.  

But, of course as soon as we get a setup dialed in that works out well for our situation, I change it all.  We sold or NorCal house and are buying in Vegas.  Since we'll be so much closer in Vegas, we'll probably sell the MCC spot.  We do really enjoy time there, so for this coming season we'll probably hold onto it and see how renting it out when we don't use it goes, but I suspect in the long run we won't use it enough to justify keeping it.  Also, 65' isn't so much of a thing anymore.  So, in theory I *could* have just kept the Thor at this point, or we *could* have gone with a 45' coach.  But truth-be-told, I'm happy it ended up this way.  The Thor was awesome, and the 4x4 and stuff made it unique and bad ass... but how can I complain about this MA?  And "only" going 40' means I can do a 24' stacker this time and stay under Nevada's 70' limit.

-TJ

 

[Sand Shark]

I've had a few RVs.  I started with a '09 Fleetwood Southwind 34G (Gas, Class A), then a '17 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 (Diesel Pusher Class A), then went back to a 5'er for a minute, then a '21 Thor Magnitude SV34 (Diesel Super C, factory 4x4 on the F550 platform), and now back in a '19 Newmar Mountain Aire 4018 (Diesel Pusher, Class A).

I hated driving the Southwind.  I had upgraded sway bars, shocks, track bars, etc. etc. etc. and it was the higher GVWR chassis with the 22.5" wheels and factory front track bar (lower GVWR units didn't have the front bar, IIRC).  It was a white-knuckle drive above 60 MPH, period.  Wind?  Trucks?  Effing horrible.  My wife learned not to even try to talk to me when I was driving it... and I'd find myself sitting with my feet flat-foot spread out like I was bracing myself for a sumo wrestler to charge.  It was actually better with a trailer on it as far as sway and wondering around... but just didn't have the power for a relatively heavy flatbed with 2 RZRs on it (it had the later, better 3-valve headed V10 and a full Banks kit).  And to be clear, I'm not just a timid driver or something.  With the 5'ers I had before the Southwind I'd comfortably tow with one hand, sending work emails, eating a sammich, etc.  Same with my later coaches.  Perhaps there was something especially wrong with THAT particular coach, but I did EVERYTHING you can do (all the parts I mentioned and more, alignments, attempts at corner-balancing, etc. etc. etc).  



After that, we got the Dutch Star.  Here's the day we traded the Southwind in on it (funny to see the Dutchy with the polished wheels and all the badges still): 



Later it got a bit more gangster: 



And I towed a 20' stacker with it: 



Even took my '67 Camaro to Glamis with it, cuz that's what you do right (truth be told I was selling it and met the buyer there):



To say driving it was night and day different would be an exceptional understatement.  The Dutchy had 315 tires all around, all 8 of 'em vs. 6 245s or whatever the Southwind had and weighed literally twice as much.  I think the extra contact patch and weight just helped a ton.  Then, there is Newmar's Comfort Drive (what @Jrauscher1 was referring to, I believe).  If you've never driven a Newmar and are considering a new coach, do yourself a favor and try one.  Comfort Drive makes a HUGe difference.  Google and the YouTubers will have plenty of videos about what it does, but the short version is it compensates for road crown, cross-winds, etc. for you so you're not holding that "tension" in the wheel.  It's also adjustable so you can spin the front tires with one finger when parking.  

The Dutch Star had the 8.9L ISL at 450/1250 HP/TQ and with the stacker I'd describe it as "just adequate."  Even though it was a 40' model (40' 9" real length) it was heavy, around 40k lbs itslef and over 52k lbs with the stacker:

View attachment 8084

This was with my 2-seat Potter car (prob 2600-2700lbs), a 2 seat XPT (prob 1800lbs), lots of tools/spares, but no fuel or water onboard the stacker yet.  The "drive axle" weight is of course actually the drive axle AND the tag axle:

View attachment 8085

Climbing truly steep grades (like the steepest parts of Highway 80 going up to Donner Summit in Northern, CA headed towards Reno) it could only pull the top of 3rd gear, which was around 37 MPH with the stacker.  It had the power to get back to the top of 3rd if I got slowed down by rigs, but couldn't hold 4th if I let it shift.  That said, the fully loaded rigs are literally doing 15 MPH in those stretches, so 37 isn't so bad. 

I should have kept that rig, but we decided to downsize for a bit, so I sold it and got a 5'er again.  That only lasted about a year before we missed having a "drivable" too much (we do a lot of trips OTHER than Glamis/toy trips so we love having a regular RV for that stuff.  We were still way up in Northern CA and I had myself convinced I was going to stay away from sand rails and only do an occasional Glamis trip, so we decided on a smaller, 4x4 RV.  I'll pick that up in the next post... 

Looks like you got your Newmar from Tom Lindstrom RV.   

 

[tjZ06]

Looks like you got your Newmar from Tom Lindstrom RV.   

The Dutch Star, yes.  In fact we had bought that Southwind used from him too, then traded it back into him on the DS.  Sold the DS back to him as well.  Found the Mountain Aire private party up North.

-TJ
 

 

[Sand Shark]

The Dutch Star, yes.  In fact we had bought that Southwind used from him too, then traded it back into him on the DS.  Sold the DS back to him as well.  Found the Mountain Aire private party up North.

-TJ
 

I bought my current motorhome from him used.   He is a super cool dude and one of the easiest purchases.  

I was looking into a new Newmar gas A-class early last year.  I heard they were going to be using the new Ford V8 for the 2021 models so I really did not push making a deal with him on new coach. 

 

[tjZ06]

I bought my current motorhome from him used.   He is a super cool dude and one of the easiest purchases.  

I was looking into a new Newmar gas A-class early last year.  I heard they were going to be using the new Ford V8 for the 2021 models so I really did not push making a deal with him on new coach. 

Yup, great guy and easy to do business with.  That new 7.3 gas motor and the 10-speed auto will be a game changer for gas Class As... but I sure hope they've found a way to make 'em drive better. 

-TJ
 

 

[Sand Shark]

Yup, great guy and easy to do business with.  That new 7.3 gas motor and the 10-speed auto will be a game changer for gas Class As... but I sure hope they've found a way to make 'em drive better. 

-TJ
 

I talked to a few owners with the new V8 and the seem to really like.  I have never had an issue with the way my A class drives.  Jayco has their J-ride set up that works well.  I remember driving my brother in laws old Fleetwood and it was a white knuckle experience until he did something to the rear suspension.

Driving a diesel A class is a piece of cake.  Drove my friend's and it was a nice ride.

 

[tjZ06]

I talked to a few owners with the new V8 and the seem to really like.  I have never had an issue with the way my A class drives.  Jayco has their J-ride set up that works well.  I remember driving my brother in laws old Fleetwood and it was a white knuckle experience until he did something to the rear suspension.

Driving a diesel A class is a piece of cake.  Drove my friend's and it was a nice ride.

Yeah, I might or might not have been pulled over for being on my phone when driving my Dutch Star with the Stacker because it was so easy/comfortable.  

-TJ

 

[URCLEVER]

I love my 2020 Super C Entegra Accolade. Easy to drive with 26ft trailer, I dont feel drained after driving it. Really a good experience.

 

[Orange_R]

So my wife and kids will not allow me to go back to a 5er. Currently own a DP but on long drives i feel fatigued but not as bad driving my dually - 5er combo. i figure a Super C will be similar to a dually? im looking at a newer Seneca with the freightliner chassis. 

What say you?

I thought you were trying to downsize  , not sure bout you but anything I drive for long periods of time drains me... 

 

[bringenkaos]

well just got from Idaho and that was an experience. I learned a lot from this trip. 

1. Driving in the desert in the summer sucks ass

2. I was either tired because i was too comfortable or white knuckling it due to winds. 

3. never again will I drive 13 hours in 1 day. Idaho to Vegas. (my daughter wanted to spend her bday there)

4. Provo is a great midway point to stop an spend the day

5. we are doing Glacier next year and im flying and renting a cabin. no way am i driving that far in the short time we have for a vacation. 

We have decided since we do alot of campground camping we need something a few feet smaller. i dont know if a 37' Class A will have the power we need but the newer Seneca's should be fine. if i were to stay Class A and campgrounds were not an issue, tag axle would be the only way. 

 

[tjZ06]

well just got from Idaho and that was an experience. I learned a lot from this trip. 

1. Driving in the desert in the summer sucks ass

2. I was either tired because i was too comfortable or white knuckling it due to winds. 

3. never again will I drive 13 hours in 1 day. Idaho to Vegas. (my daughter wanted to spend her bday there)

4. Provo is a great midway point to stop an spend the day

5. we are doing Glacier next year and im flying and renting a cabin. no way am i driving that far in the short time we have for a vacation. 

We have decided since we do alot of campground camping we need something a few feet smaller. i dont know if a 37' Class A will have the power we need but the newer Seneca's should be fine. if i were to stay Class A and campgrounds were not an issue, tag axle would be the only way. 

It's pretty hard to find "smaller" DPs with the bigger motor, trans and chassis to allow towing a heavy stacker.  Justin who was on the site before the crash (something like blacktopseal IIRC) specializes in finding the shorter high-end older rigs, remodeling/detailing them up and selling them.  I have his direct contact info (I bought a stacker from him previously, great guy to do business with) if you want it.  Otherwise, you're hard pressed to even find an ISL in anything under 40'.  

That Accolade like @URCLEVER has might be perfect for you.  I've been in it, and it's a really really nice rig.  The interior feels very spacious with his floorplan (I might actually remove the couch on one side of my Mountain Aire just to create the same big, open feeling) and it's a great powertrain/chassis combo with a reasonable trailer.  IIRC it has the 360/800 HP/TQ 6.7L ISB but it has the big Allison MH3000 (which you'll find in 450/1250 HP/TQ 8.9L ISL pushers that weigh a lot more) and full air brakes and rear air suspension.  I wouldn't put a 15k lbs stacker behind it, but I'd feel fine with a 12k lbs enclosed personally.  That said, the actual length is over 39' so it's right there with "40 foot" diesel pushers. 

What might actually be perfect for you is something like the Thor Magnitude/Omni I mentioned above.  Mine was 35' 5" real length and I wouldn't hesitate to put a loaded 28' box trailer behind it.  Thor quality is a little lacking, but Renegade makes a very similar unit in the "VeraCruz" line.  The 35FWS is almost the exact same floorplan I had in my Magnitude, but has Renegade quality in the build.  The big reason we didn't go with them when we got the Magnitude was a) availability b) I really liked/wanted the outdoor kitchen which Renegade doesn't do for some reason.  Hindsight 20/20 I'd prob do the Renegade this time, though I haven't owned one myself and the "grass is always greener" so I can't 100% verify the build quality is better...

-TJ
 

 

[Rockwood]

DP? Super C?  Meh.  This is the way to go:

 

[Jtmoney714]

well just got from Idaho and that was an experience. I learned a lot from this trip. 

1. Driving in the desert in the summer sucks ass

2. I was either tired because i was too comfortable or white knuckling it due to winds. 

3. never again will I drive 13 hours in 1 day. Idaho to Vegas. (my daughter wanted to spend her bday there)

4. Provo is a great midway point to stop an spend the day

5. we are doing Glacier next year and im flying and renting a cabin. no way am i driving that far in the short time we have for a vacation. 

We have decided since we do alot of campground camping we need something a few feet smaller. i dont know if a 37' Class A will have the power we need but the newer Seneca's should be fine. if i were to stay Class A and campgrounds were not an issue, tag axle would be the only way. 

View attachment 8507

View attachment 8508

View attachment 8509

View attachment 8510

Glacier was on my next years summer vacation list too. I drove my class a gas back to corona from Moab in one shot. I didn’t think it was too bad and that thing drove like Crap. I’m hoping the 40k pound pusher this go around will be even easier. 

 

[matt86m]

Want squirly? Come drive my 32’ dp with a 17’ wb! 

 

[Rockwood]

Want squirly? Come drive my 32’ dp with a 17’ wb! 

Dafuuuuuq.....?  Dayum, does it wheelie if you hit a decent roller?

 

[matt86m]

Dafuuuuuq.....?  Dayum, does it wheelie if you hit a decent roller?

No but if I lift too quick the ass end wants to come around on me! :lol:

 

[tjZ06]

Want squirly? Come drive my 32’ dp with a 17’ wb! 

I warned you, didn't I? 

-TJ

 

[Bobalos]

Want a little entertainment, try driving this during "high winds".  My drive is only 150 Miles & it takes me 30 minutes to pull the seat cushion out of my ass so I can get out of the truck.  5000 Lb truck, 12000 Lb trailer. LOL

"I think Im gonna need a bigger truck".

 

[tjZ06]

Want a little entertainment, try driving this during "high winds".  My drive is only 150 Miles & it takes me 30 minutes to pull the seat cushion out of my ass so I can get out of the truck.  5000 Lb truck, 12000 Lb trailer. LOL

"I think Im gonna need a bigger truck".

View attachment 8721

If setup right, that shouldn't be *that* bad.  I know 5'ers are a totally different world, but I towed ~17k lbs super comfortably with a ~8k lbs truck.  I used my wife's 1500 to tow ~8k lbs and it was ~5k.  I did use this setup: https://andersenhitches.com/pages/weight-distribution-hitch and it makes a BIG difference (the anti-sway aspect works VERY well). 

-TJ