Sandrail LS Motors - Pics - Tools - QA.

For those on a tight budget that want to buy a 5.3 or 6.0 junk yard iron block - (which most used engines are 150k plus miles) - what should be done on the engine to make it a bit more reliable? Is there a DYI kit with suggested bearings, gasket kits, etc.  Asking for myself for my Tahoe project, but I've seen several people with iron blocks in the dunes / cheap V8 power it seems like.

 
What do you guys think about nitrous injection?

 I had my last sand car set up with a 150 hp wet shot on a button.   I figured that a 383 NA stroker was great for the dunes but liked a nice hit for the drags or shooting a hill. 

 
J Alper said:
@Fullthrottleguy

For CP Performance block being better,  than a RHS, that is just a rambling on opinion,   There are so many Features of a RHS Compared to a CP,  both Cap designs are not a great design, And if i had a Free Block I would bot Choose the RHS or a CP,  both are Great Blocks,  but not one is better than each other, almost the same block,  

Have the mains tie into the side i feel is not a great option  it adds windage and when the block flexes the bearing clearance change,   But that how LS motors are designed so most go with it, 

The Dart Block has a better oiling system and way better block design, and are 2-3K over a RHS or CP block and long weight times,   

For a Sand Car Both Blocks work good,  

For Most Sand Cars the LS3 Block is amazing,  

I mostly started this to give good ideas to the average person wanting to try something for themselves,  will show some cool builds 

But mostly what i will post is the average 383, 402 416, CI   this is the Majority of sandcar motors,  

Back to the Facts,  the CP block is a great block, But the RHS is Stronger and has more features, The one issue of the CP block is it is a Aluminum Copy of the LSX block,  the RHS is not a Copy,  it has features that other block do not have, 

RHS features, 

  • NO Rear Barbell, it has plugs with large rear oil passage
  • Rear Outlet 12AN built into the rear of the block for full flow oil and oil cooler or dry sump return, 
  • Billet rear cover with inverted pyramid slot to hold o-ring, this is better than the standard o ring straight channel, 
  • upper valley is setup for knock sensors 
  • Larger lifter area, they deleted the LSX style try design putting more meat in the block over the 6mm bosses for trays, 
  • can run rear cam sensor, 
  • steel or brass cam plate, 
  • STANDARD, ARP 7/16 main studs, everyone the LSX and CP use 10mm, 
  • Cam Bearings come installed,  
  • Comes with Spiral locks for cam bearings  
  • Side bolts 3/8 ARP, all other are 8mm 
Click to expand...
Jason

Last time I will post on this thread, but when you call me a liar I cannot just sit back.. so here it goes - If no one wnats to read it - they can scroll down - I just like to help educate when I can

My goal is always I just want to give people information to help them make good decisions - just like you hopefully want   - but you are not stating facts in this case ... you just want to sell engine jobs and sell blocks so you are distorting the facts to make your case and thats fine - more power to you everyone has to make a living

But then You act like like a can I say it "far left liberaL "  - You cannot stand discussion and criticize writing a book then you write a book to complain  - 

I am not selling engine jobs or engine parts (although I do sell sand car parts) so I am relating what I know is best IMO and combined experience from some trusted builders and machine shops I use that fix those RHS block for some big builders  - but everyone's experiences can differ - what cannot differ is common sense - while its no so common, I try to apply it when giving an opinion and I always state its IMO when it is  

Now, admittedly I sell Holley EFI and I am biased on that but I state my Bias and the fact I liked Holley  EFI way before I sold it 

You complain about opinion then post a bunch of opinions  - I don't see fact just opinion and incorrect statements on CP  - at least get the facts correct or its not helping anyone

I never said CP is better than RHS, just that RHS is not right in every case 

I guess from your comments you never touched a CP block and not have you spent anytime with the guys there either in person or on the phone   - you must just be reading internet descriptions on the forums - the real keyboard warrior experts (like us)

I have used both RHS and CP Performance and prefer them for different applications - I will use either  - except Like I said I won't use RHS anymore on SC cars anymore with big SC's

In fact I don't use big Whipples anymore  they are too hard on the crank and take too much HP compared to smaller SC at same boost level on certain engines  - bigger is not always better   - you can make same HP with their smaller 3.0 or the bigger Eaton up to 1000HP  or the KB  3.6 and give up so much  - so net HP is way up

but thats off the subject - 

Back to RHS  - Prior to comp group VC's  taking over RHS thats all I ever used aftermarket,  but not anymore  - I have choices and don't have to deal with their availability issues and price gouging  - now that is opinion

-----

Anyway just so people can see for themselves:  I will address your list of features for the RHS  and the List for CP in comparison...  

RHS features,  - these are features - Not always benefits - there is a difference.,.. we have cars that are More like street cars than Drag cars  - and mosr of the Features are good on drag  or pure race cars  and have no benefit to us except making the build less standard 

  • NO Rear Barbell, it has plugs with large rear oil passage - this has no real benefit in a Non race car that you are using without a thermostat on the oil - LSX can make 3500HP on the block -oiling is fine  - barbell jst redirects flow of oil keeping clean and dirty separate - they never fail and there is more than enough oil flow on an LS  -  this is ok on erace car for the feature you list below to be enabled
  • Rear Outlet 12AN built into the rear of the block for full flow oil and oil cooler or dry sump return - this is nice for a pure drag race environment  but actually a PIA  when you want to use an oil thermostat like you absolutely should use a on a sand car - you have to buy an inline thermostat, expensive and hard to plumb - millions of thermostats are made for standard LS engines - work great save $$ - again LSX oiling is good for 3500HP - nice to have for a dedicated race car - 12 is also over kill unless you are running a huge Dry sump tank ( like 16 quarts  - 4 gallons)
  • Billet rear cover with inverted pyramid slot to hold o-ring, this is better than the standard o ring straight channel,  - thats called an opinion - why is it better than what GM did that works perfectly  - I can go either way on this  - its probably easier to install O-ring maybe  - I never noticed a difference GM oil ring is fine after you do a bunch of them.
  • upper valley is setup for knock sensors  - we don't use knock sensors in sand cars 99% of the time  - and when we do we use LS3 style side of block - no benefit  - its just a leftover since this block was designed back when LS1's were the only engines so they copied what GM did - GM got rid of that with later engines  and went to side knock sensors 
  • Larger lifter area, they deleted the LSX style try design putting more meat in the block over the 6mm bosses for trays,  - CP eliminated the Lifter trays too  and CP put in X-bracing so its stronger  but it makes using 6 bolt heads a little harder toi tight the bolts underneath  - I like that RHS feature a little better for that reason
  • can run rear cam sensor,  again a leftover feature because thew block was designed  20+ years ago  -- it was designed back when LS1's were the only engines so they copied what GM did - GM got rid of that with later engines  because its not needed or preferred - 4x timing on the front cover is more accurate 
  • steel or brass cam plate -I guess its nice to have a brass cam plate- I am not sure why I would need one. Both the CP and RHS blocks have provision for raised cam ( to clear big strokes and big rods  - so they both have new cam plates different than factory  LS block  - CP uses a ground flat steel plate
  • STANDARD, ARP 7/16 main studs, everyone the LSX and CP use 10mm,  - CP uses 7/16 or 1/2" ARP studs  with deep  setting  - this  was made possible by the extra beef in the block helps not to pull the front main out of the block -  I order all with 1/2" Mains and 1/2" head studs  - no cost option - strong as can be 
  • Cam Bearings come installed  - this is a not a benefit IMO   Anyone that blueprints the engine before putting it together will remove them - can't  completely cleanthe  block correctly with cam bearings in after all the machine work and deburring  - I clean up the cam passages too - so the bearings have to be out.  I knock them out before machine work so thay don;'t get damaged anyway and leave them out  to clean the block after machine work - this is the right way to do it most builders would agree
  • Comes with Spiral locks for cam bearings   -  thats nice to have  - we have seen cam bearings be problems in the past on stock GM engines  - again a throwback to old LS1 issues- and probably why they istall the bearings spiral locks can be difficult to install correctly in the shop
  • Side bolts 3/8 ARP, all other are 8mm  - CP has dual 8mm -  - larger cross sectional area - I like that bettter more surface area and larger spread on the force - but can go either way  By The way they supplied GM side bolts I swap for ARP  as a best practice



CP Features -

All of the Above plus:

• You can call them and talk to the owner  - he will answer all your questions  - In comparison RHS is owned by Industrial Opportunity Partners (IOP), an operations-focused private equity firm based in Evanston, Illinois, and owner of Edelbrock LLC.  they have 1,000 employees and are mostly focused on cutting lower volume products and reducing cost of products, not innovating  products ( read their latest 10K it says that almost verbatim)

• They own the foundry and specialize in aluminum production  - with a history in Aerospace

Reinforced LSX design - everything is stronger - its NOT just an LSX copy 

*Added cross bracing in the lifter valley

*Maximized crankshaft saddle radius and a 40% larger footprint from our double crossbolted main caps (thats the 2 x 8mm side bolts) - crank stability allows more HP and improves Bearing life under high load

• Tall deck raised cam can handle a 4.600 stroke 

thats my take 

thank you members for indulging me 

 
Fullthrottleguy said:
Jason

Last time I will post on this thread, but when you call me a liar I cannot just sit back.. so here it goes - If no one wnats to read it - they can scroll down - I just like to help educate when I can

My goal is always I just want to give people information to help them make good decisions - just like you hopefully want   - but you are not stating facts in this case ... you just want to sell engine jobs and sell blocks so you are distorting the facts to make your case and thats fine - more power to you everyone has to make a living

But then You act like like a can I say it "far left liberaL "  - You cannot stand discussion and criticize writing a book then you write a book to complain  - 

I am not selling engine jobs or engine parts (although I do sell sand car parts) so I am relating what I know is best IMO and combined experience from some trusted builders and machine shops I use that fix those RHS block for some big builders  - but everyone's experiences can differ - what cannot differ is common sense - while its no so common, I try to apply it when giving an opinion and I always state its IMO when it is  

Now, admittedly I sell Holley EFI and I am biased on that but I state my Bias and the fact I liked Holley  EFI way before I sold it 

You complain about opinion then post a bunch of opinions  - I don't see fact just opinion and incorrect statements on CP  - at least get the facts correct or its not helping anyone

I never said CP is better than RHS, just that RHS is not right in every case 

I guess from your comments you never touched a CP block and not have you spent anytime with the guys there either in person or on the phone   - you must just be reading internet descriptions on the forums - the real keyboard warrior experts (like us)

I have used both RHS and CP Performance and prefer them for different applications - I will use either  - except Like I said I won't use RHS anymore on SC cars anymore with big SC's

In fact I don't use big Whipples anymore  they are too hard on the crank and take too much HP compared to smaller SC at same boost level on certain engines  - bigger is not always better   - you can make same HP with their smaller 3.0 or the bigger Eaton up to 1000HP  or the KB  3.6 and give up so much  - so net HP is way up

but thats off the subject - 

Back to RHS  - Prior to comp group VC's  taking over RHS thats all I ever used aftermarket,  but not anymore  - I have choices and don't have to deal with their availability issues and price gouging  - now that is opinion

-----

Anyway just so people can see for themselves:  I will address your list of features for the RHS  and the List for CP in comparison...  

RHS features,  - these are features - Not always benefits - there is a difference.,.. we have cars that are More like street cars than Drag cars  - and mosr of the Features are good on drag  or pure race cars  and have no benefit to us except making the build less standard 

  • NO Rear Barbell, it has plugs with large rear oil passage - this has no real benefit in a Non race car that you are using without a thermostat on the oil - LSX can make 3500HP on the block -oiling is fine  - barbell jst redirects flow of oil keeping clean and dirty separate - they never fail and there is more than enough oil flow on an LS  -  this is ok on erace car for the feature you list below to be enabled
  • Rear Outlet 12AN built into the rear of the block for full flow oil and oil cooler or dry sump return - this is nice for a pure drag race environment  but actually a PIA  when you want to use an oil thermostat like you absolutely should use a on a sand car - you have to buy an inline thermostat, expensive and hard to plumb - millions of thermostats are made for standard LS engines - work great save $$ - again LSX oiling is good for 3500HP - nice to have for a dedicated race car - 12 is also over kill unless you are running a huge Dry sump tank ( like 16 quarts  - 4 gallons)
  • Billet rear cover with inverted pyramid slot to hold o-ring, this is better than the standard o ring straight channel,  - thats called an opinion - why is it better than what GM did that works perfectly  - I can go either way on this  - its probably easier to install O-ring maybe  - I never noticed a difference GM oil ring is fine after you do a bunch of them.
  • upper valley is setup for knock sensors  - we don't use knock sensors in sand cars 99% of the time  - and when we do we use LS3 style side of block - no benefit  - its just a leftover since this block was designed back when LS1's were the only engines so they copied what GM did - GM got rid of that with later engines  and went to side knock sensors 
  • Larger lifter area, they deleted the LSX style try design putting more meat in the block over the 6mm bosses for trays,  - CP eliminated the Lifter trays too  and CP put in X-bracing so its stronger  but it makes using 6 bolt heads a little harder toi tight the bolts underneath  - I like that RHS feature a little better for that reason
  • can run rear cam sensor,  again a leftover feature because thew block was designed  20+ years ago  -- it was designed back when LS1's were the only engines so they copied what GM did - GM got rid of that with later engines  because its not needed or preferred - 4x timing on the front cover is more accurate 
  • steel or brass cam plate -I guess its nice to have a brass cam plate- I am not sure why I would need one. Both the CP and RHS blocks have provision for raised cam ( to clear big strokes and big rods  - so they both have new cam plates different than factory  LS block  - CP uses a ground flat steel plate
  • STANDARD, ARP 7/16 main studs, everyone the LSX and CP use 10mm,  - CP uses 7/16 or 1/2" ARP studs  with deep  setting  - this  was made possible by the extra beef in the block helps not to pull the front main out of the block -  I order all with 1/2" Mains and 1/2" head studs  - no cost option - strong as can be 
  • Cam Bearings come installed  - this is a not a benefit IMO   Anyone that blueprints the engine before putting it together will remove them - can't  completely cleanthe  block correctly with cam bearings in after all the machine work and deburring  - I clean up the cam passages too - so the bearings have to be out.  I knock them out before machine work so thay don;'t get damaged anyway and leave them out  to clean the block after machine work - this is the right way to do it most builders would agree
  • Comes with Spiral locks for cam bearings   -  thats nice to have  - we have seen cam bearings be problems in the past on stock GM engines  - again a throwback to old LS1 issues- and probably why they istall the bearings spiral locks can be difficult to install correctly in the shop
  • Side bolts 3/8 ARP, all other are 8mm  - CP has dual 8mm -  - larger cross sectional area - I like that bettter more surface area and larger spread on the force - but can go either way  By The way they supplied GM side bolts I swap for ARP  as a best practice



CP Features -

All of the Above plus:

• You can call them and talk to the owner  - he will answer all your questions  - In comparison RHS is owned by Industrial Opportunity Partners (IOP), an operations-focused private equity firm based in Evanston, Illinois, and owner of Edelbrock LLC.  they have 1,000 employees and are mostly focused on cutting lower volume products and reducing cost of products, not innovating  products ( read their latest 10K it says that almost verbatim)

• They own the foundry and specialize in aluminum production  - with a history in Aerospace

Reinforced LSX design - everything is stronger - its NOT just an LSX copy 

*Added cross bracing in the lifter valley

*Maximized crankshaft saddle radius and a 40% larger footprint from our double crossbolted main caps (thats the 2 x 8mm side bolts) - crank stability allows more HP and improves Bearing life under high load

• Tall deck raised cam can handle a 4.600 stroke 

thats my take 

thank you members for indulging me 
Click to expand...
Alex I value your opinion,  I am sorry if offended you,  

 
J Alper said:
More Motor pics, 

@Squatcher 445 CI Motor

This was a little different,  Custom Made Snout to use the Whipple 4.5 components on a 4.0 Whipple, 

Go with our Heart,  If they tell you it can not be done, prove them wrong, 

View attachment 112476
Click to expand...
Jason what’s the secret to this setup? Currently doing a 4.0 whipple on a 383 build with 5th gen Camaro offset and accessories. The kit was purchased second hand and came with that same lower pulley, spacer and the bracket with the idlers, upper pulley is a 6 rib that lines up pretty close with the balancer but is way off from the secondary pulley. 

its looking like I have the wrong snout and standoffs for the bracket to run the 12 rib setup. Snout is 3.100 and standoffs are about 4” length, any help is greatly appreciated! 

IMG_9983.jpegIMG_9984.jpeg

 
Can you show a pic of the lower pulley,  if it is  the 6 bolt lower,  you will need a thinner adapter called a Y body spacer adapter, for the 12 Rib lower pulley,  

If you do the Ybody spacer 4.5 whipple lower pulley, you will also need to extend the snout on the 4.0 to the 

WDS-3B 3.380" Drive Extension **Color: Black **Pin Style: Whipple 1 400.00 400.00
MISC AUTO PART Y body adapter for ATI 1 150.00 150.00
MISC AUTO PART Support Stands 2 50.00 100.00
FedEx Std. Overnight Tracking # 1 55.00 55.00

This was the parts plus the 12 Rib lower

Or 

keep the snout you have and can run the LSA lower pulley or lsx Concepts 3 bolt 8'' pulley 

Or the whipple 3 rib 3 bolt pulley, instead of the 12 rib marine style, 

 
for my next project i have a spare ls1 with 243 heads that i would like to build a stroker out of. can you recommend a stroker kit with a 3.903 piston?

i plan on having the 243s ported and polished and a set of Texas speed 660 springs installed.

can you also recommend a cam for this setup?

i also plan on running a FAST LsxR 102 intake

 
Last edited by a moderator:
good morning duners. while i stock pile parts for my stroker build. i plan on upgrading the current motor a tad.
i plan on replacing the truck intake with a fast lsxr 102 and having the 243 heads ported with a full valve job and Texas speed 660 spring set. could you recommend a cam that would work well with this top end upgrade.
also do you know who tunes the mefi ecus in the phoenix area still?
 
ranman5608 said:
good morning duners. while i stock pile parts for my stroker build. i plan on upgrading the current motor a tad.
i plan on replacing the truck intake with a fast lsxr 102 and having the 243 heads ported with a full valve job and Texas speed 660 spring set. could you recommend a cam that would work well with this top end upgrade.
also do you know who tunes the mefi ecus in the phoenix area still?
Click to expand...
Steve Cole in Tucson can do Mefi.
 
KLC said:
The big displacement SC marine engines would last a very long time (10 years or more) before any issues popped up, of course they are not used in the same manner as an off road engine. Marine engines are typically rolled into their power band and maintained there, unlike off road engines that are constantly on and off the throttle. I remember the SC 502 in our boat, we would pull out of the marina at the 40 (I forget the name of it its been so long) and run 5200 rpm until we literally got back to Windsor. There is nothing like the sound of a healthy big block and a roots SC just guzzling fuel and singing through unbaffled headers, unless of course you were fortunate enough to have 2 of them LOL. Sorry to go off topic. Like FTG has said, durability is all in the rotating assembly's architecture.
Click to expand...

Can I add to this thread?

Nothing you said here is wrong, but with that being said...

The Blue Merc 502 is seriously detuned from the factory, and that's the MAIN reason they last so long!

Seems like the engines @J Alper is building are tuned/built for Serious output, as opposed to last forever.

JMS just did a refresh on my buddies 502 Stoker, and now it's back to it original healthy self.

Hopefully it will last another 20 years? 🤷‍♂️👍🏼

P.S. I worked at JMS with Mike for five years or so awhile back. 😎
 
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