Recommendations for EFI System for LS??

[wesinls]

So question on this, I've heard of this very thing but let's say on my stock LS1 would it self learn enough to eliminate a tune session? Seems redundant. What about when I go to 500hp will it keep self learning? 

No clue, i dont plan on risking it and will be having someone tune mine.

 

[Jersey_Jeff73]

So question on this, I've heard of this very thing but let's say on my stock LS1 would it self learn enough to eliminate a tune session? Seems redundant. What about when I go to 500hp will it keep self learning? 

it self learn the fuel map not the timing map the timing will need to be tuned but a tuner more timing more power or too much melt down...  base maps are a good starting point but will need to be tweaked. you can also add a race gas tune.  The nice thing with the self learn is when its 90 during the day and then 40 at night it will richen it up and will run better. i have the dash you can access just about everything but i ran the usb up front to the passenger seat so it is easy to use the lap top.    my hp is on holly v5 you can down load it and play with the program first to see if its something you want to mess with 

 

[Chingon619]

it self learn the fuel map not the timing map the timing will need to be tuned but a tuner more timing more power or too much melt down...  base maps are a good starting point but will need to be tweaked. you can also add a race gas tune.  The nice thing with the self learn is when its 90 during the day and then 40 at night it will richen it up and will run better. i have the dash you can access just about everything but i ran the usb up front to the passenger seat so it is easy to use the lap top.    my hp is on holly v5 you can down load it and play with the program first to see if its something you want to mess with 

Awesome!! I'll keep it in mind. My dilemma is that I am running an oem 0411 ecu on my stock LS1 and it has not been tuned because my skills kind of failed me. I stripped the OEM harness to run like a 4 wire hookup. Welp it runs great except a little tid bit of a mistake. I pulled the O2 sensor wires out too and I had back then read that some cars don't run them, so I said "ta hell"! Until I learned those are ran by aftermarket tuners with closed loop or something rather. Me not too smart. The headers don't even have the bung for an 02 So I thought "perfect" LOL. Would you believe it, my car has been running on hopes and dreams! 3 seasons not a single issue. 

So, my guilty conscience has gotten the best of me and know I need to do something about it. I had called a tuner thinking I can just get a tune but ended up getting yelled at for not having the 02s plugged in on the 0411. He said the factory ecu is a beautiful piece of equipment when used correctly. So, do I wire back in some 02s and tune, or do I just go aftermarket closed loop yadda stuff. I would love a cleaner look too but I'm still debating on what to do. Especially when I would like to go down the stroker route on this engine. Thanks for whoever reads this and can input some info. Appreciate ya'll! 

 

[Jersey_Jeff73]

Awesome!! I'll keep it in mind. My dilemma is that I am running an oem 0411 ecu on my stock LS1 and it has not been tuned because my skills kind of failed me. I stripped the OEM harness to run like a 4 wire hookup. Welp it runs great except a little tid bit of a mistake. I pulled the O2 sensor wires out too and I had back then read that some cars don't run them, so I said "ta hell"! Until I learned those are ran by aftermarket tuners with closed loop or something rather. Me not too smart. The headers don't even have the bung for an 02 So I thought "perfect" LOL. Would you believe it, my car has been running on hopes and dreams! 3 seasons not a single issue. 

So, my guilty conscience has gotten the best of me and know I need to do something about it. I had called a tuner thinking I can just get a tune but ended up getting yelled at for not having the 02s plugged in on the 0411. He said the factory ecu is a beautiful piece of equipment when used correctly. So, do I wire back in some 02s and tune, or do I just go aftermarket closed loop yadda stuff. I would love a cleaner look too but I'm still debating on what to do. Especially when I would like to go down the stroker route on this engine. Thanks for whoever reads this and can input some info. Appreciate ya'll! 

well if its stock put the o2 sensors in and run it but down the road if your changing injectors or adding boost different cams etc. than I would do the holly. I didn't install the knock sensors we just went through a bunch of plugs when we were tuning it in the dunes. kept reading the back of the strap https://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/reading-spark-plugs.html     I was told don't know how true it is but the knock sensors would be problematic in the car with solid motor mounts possibly picking up noise from the suspension. could be used but would be a pain to get them tuned in . the car had a mefi which was conservatively tuned I think I'm little closer to the edge now but I definitely picked up a bunch of hp. before i needed a roller to get a wheelie up now wheel up in 2nd and 3rd on command.  have about 20 hrs into tuning and it runs great at first had a problem with the fuel pressure regulator were trying to get 45psi at idle but the regulator wasn't stable that low had to use the data logger in v5 to watch the fuel pressure the fuel pressure would drop up to about 2k then would rise after that into boost. just had to set it up for 50psi and that fixed that problem. Then had to clean up the fuel map then it needed some timing down low to get rid of a stumble.  up top would run a quick pass 3rd gear to 4k and read pug add timing repeat then 4.5 repeat kept doing until got to the rev limiter. it was fun and satisfying going from doing a pass that was good then trying to doo a pass with the front wheels on the ground. I'm no tuner don't know if what we were doing was right also have the attitude that if i break it  that will give me a reason to build a bigger engine 

 

[tjZ06]

Awesome!! I'll keep it in mind. My dilemma is that I am running an oem 0411 ecu on my stock LS1 and it has not been tuned because my skills kind of failed me. I stripped the OEM harness to run like a 4 wire hookup. Welp it runs great except a little tid bit of a mistake. I pulled the O2 sensor wires out too and I had back then read that some cars don't run them, so I said "ta hell"! Until I learned those are ran by aftermarket tuners with closed loop or something rather. Me not too smart. The headers don't even have the bung for an 02 So I thought "perfect" LOL. Would you believe it, my car has been running on hopes and dreams! 3 seasons not a single issue. 

So, my guilty conscience has gotten the best of me and know I need to do something about it. I had called a tuner thinking I can just get a tune but ended up getting yelled at for not having the 02s plugged in on the 0411. He said the factory ecu is a beautiful piece of equipment when used correctly. So, do I wire back in some 02s and tune, or do I just go aftermarket closed loop yadda stuff. I would love a cleaner look too but I'm still debating on what to do. Especially when I would like to go down the stroker route on this engine. Thanks for whoever reads this and can input some info. Appreciate ya'll! 

Keep in mind the stock o2s in a 0411 system are just narrow-band and only accurate near stoich.  They shouldn't be used for tuning purposes, outside of idle and very light-throttle conditions.  The 0411 is a great computer, and you already have it, so *if* you're interested in learning tuning I'd add a stand-alone wideband and do some logging/tuning.  FWIW "closed loop" *DOES* use the o2s for feedback into the short/long term fuel trims (hence "closed loop" - it gets feedback from the o2s, makes fuel trims, gets feedback, makes trims, etc. in a "loop").  You probably aren't running a MAF either, so you want an open loop, speed density tune.  It's how most LS guys running much of any cam and/or boost with 0411s run their cars anyway.  If you want true self-learning that utilizes wide-band o2s to accurately target AFR under load (in the PE tables) you need a Holley or something similar.  

-TJ

 

[J Alper]

The factory system is a good system, if The only issue is a harness, i would get a harness from CBM for the factory unit, 

If you really do not want to keep the factory system, Holley seems to be what everyone is going to, it is easy to purchase and can setup quick,  I would never ever let it be only on self tune,  that is a waist of HP, and can lead to motor issues, might seem fine but it was really designed for the street, The load in the sand is way different from the street, 

Holley Terminator X will work, but when talking to Holley it is not recommended for offroad or any outside elements, I have used Terminator X, it you can see just by how it is made that the elements will get to it over time, you can buy a spare Term-X ECU, and be cheaper than a HP system, but the Holley HP is by far way better,   Inputs are also limited, no Therm inputs  only 5v and 20v,  

All and All sticking to the Holley with a aftermarket harness will be the best bet,   The Holley is pretty crummy and will take hours to rework, and is not a drop in harness, you will need to add relays move wires and ect.  CBM and Turkey sell aftermarket harness for a affordable price that is a drop in harrness 

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

Only my opinion - 

I have done nearly 2 dozen GM ECU or MEFI to Holley conversions over the last 3 years.  The Holley is by far the best conversion out there today for the price and ease of install and getting up and running for the average person, but has the good enough SW that pro's are happy tuning. 

The Terminator X is ideal for a sand car IMO.  with a NA car getting it running and tuned can be completely remote, in fact while not ideal you could use the base tune map the computer generates with the wizard and apply the learning  and a touch of hand tuning it will save thousand on dyno tuning,. 

the 3.5" (dash) hand held is usually good enough for almost anybody  but the 6.86 and 12' PRO dashes are incredible.

I talk to Holley engineers all the time  - While the HP is the top of the line ECU with more inputs  the HP is "potted" for vibration the Terminator X can handle anything we do (except if run Baja) as the lead engineer told me if you comfortable driving the car (not peeing blood after a drive) the Terminator X will not have a problem, you are likely to stop before the vibration can affect the ECU Holley had such good luck with the terminator design they are moving the HP to a terminator style case. 

The HP is waterproof and shockproof - the Term needs to not get soaked and needs to be mounted securely The HP has more inputs that you will never use, and easier to tune Turbo boost mechanism, and has the ability to run lower cost low impedance Injectors (the Term X can only run high imoedence _like GM factory) injectors.

I have played with Fuel Tech - they are good, AEM, FiTech, Motec, Megasquirt and few others. The Holley is by far the best all around

The other advantage to the Holley is that Many people can remotely tune it or fix problems you might have with configuration. Don't waste your money on a Dyno tune with an NA engine

There are a few "tricks" to making the install easy, and lots of people miss them and blame the Holley. 

All that being said, the Stock GM computer is fine for an NA engine - a little work with HP tuners and it should be dead reliable. While for years I preferred the MEFI over the stock GM for a sand car and still think its superior just because they never go bad... they do require a full dyno tune and will live for years and years with no problems, and are cheap with harnesses (I have a few laying around). I do not think it pays to swap the GM computer for the MEFI on an NA car unless you want to clean up the harness. Most OE harness cut  up are not reliable (depending on who did it ) and ALL the mail order harness are garbage IMO. Howell is about the best harness out there (used by Turnkey and CBM) and they screw up too - I have fixed 2 of them so far.

As of today i would NOT buy an aftermarket harness for the Holley - the Holley harness is actually better.  Early on the Holley was not great - but if someone asks me to do a Holley with and aftermarket harness I just pass. None has worked out of the box or been reliable over time - I Hate to say that but after doing a few I am not impressed- at all.. I have fixed everyone of the few I have done, and many after running for a while -  I have only had one Holley harness I had to fix, and it was pin that pulled out  - easy fix. The aftermarket harness were hours and hours of repair - ...

Regarding MEFI replacing your stock GM computer,  by the time you are done you will wish you just spent $1000 on the Holley Term X and were done ...

The bottomline is a well tuned GM stock ECU on an NA engine with a decent harness makes no less HP than any aftermarket ECU and is just as reliable, so why switch?

Here's the part people won't tell you with aftermarket ECUs - Follow the  If they tell you to connect the ECU directly to the battery do it.  Don't use a "break ground" master power switch - the car will source ground through the Holley and it will not be a good experience ...I guarantee that .... Holley, Fueltech, AEM and others are SUPER touchy on starting voltage. For example, A holley with a  battery dropping below 11.6V likely will never start  = the GM computer will.  Anytime you have to choose "custom" in engine config - such as a 24x crank and 4x cam the engine will have to crank over a few  (or many)revolutions (depending the sensor brand you use - and believe me use only AC delco OEM - you will thank me later) before it starts due to the sensors needing more time to sync - its kinda annoying that you don't get that instant start.  You will also-have to adjust your fuel pump priming.  That is just an example of little stuff that needs to be done thats not in the manual .. its still and aftermarket part, where the GM part has thought about all that stuff already .

I change over 20 parameters on the Holley before I get to start the car from what the Wizard builds because I know I can get closer to perfect on the first start. The Holley SW is great - not perfect

I did a few write ups on how to do a Holley install but they were lost when GD crashed. I might re create them one day, but Holley is making it even easier now ... I hope that helps a little with your decision

 

[r3meyer]

There was some discussion about this on the old board.  One guy said he picked up 200HP (IIRC) by having a legit dyno tune done after the self learn.

Im that guy.  I am probably one of the first guys to run holley EFI.  2016 because thats when I got my car and I hated the fact that if I wanted to change anything on my car with MEFI it would require another dyno tune.  Change the TB size?  Need a new tune.  Change to better heads?  Needs a new tune.  Change intake setup?  Needs a new tune.

Im also probably one of the first guys to run LiFePo4 batteries... so yeah.  

The reason I picked up 200HP was because I left the knock sensors active and it was retarding the timing.  Once we clicked those off it was game on.  I could have 100% let the self learn system do its thing and not done the dyno, but I wanted that HP and TQ number.  When we dyno tuned it we just held it at all spectrums of the RPM range and waited for it to stop adjusting then moved to the next RPM an load range.

I lost a bearing on the motor right after I put in the holley.  That next day swapped in a junk yard ls2 and just put the computer back into learn mode.  It adjusted everything and after the 1st day of just riding around it was pretty damn close to being under 1-3% fuel changes.  Ran it the rest of the season and sold the engine to another guy and handed him the tune to go with it.

If you want the absolute ragged edge of your HP then obviously a dyno tune is going to be needed so you can see what each little change does.

There are 1000's of guys running the holley setup on crazy motors that have never set foot into a dyno room.  The facebook group has 31k members as of today.

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

There are 1000's of guys running the holley setup on crazy motors that have never set foot into a dyno room.  The facebook group has 31k members as of today.

Most of the Holley forum guys fall in 3 categories - Tuners that want to make money fixing your mistakes (they are no help) and others that follow the common best practices the third type post. 

A couple of the cars I did that are Holley NA went to the dyno after I set up the ECU and had they do a few runs in learn and cleaned up the map  (learn is not perfect) and ALL of them never saw over 5-10HP difference.  If you foillow "best practices" the Holley software is really good. 

It honestly pretty hard to screw it up

Like you said Knock sensor sensitivity (I don't turn them off I tune them) is a biggie and most people have an issue with just off idle acceleration if they are running a Chinese Throttle body that does not a have a  tapered curve they will get some stumble.  The other big issue is where O2 sensor is an how long the exhaust is.  it too long to explain here - but that one catches lots of people. The Dyno guys fix it in 20 seconds and charge you $1000

 

[Goatpoker]

Is there any good data out there on the benefit of sequential vs. batch fire on mild engines? Like HP gain or MPG gain? Or is it just a "Feature" that is easy to sell....

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

Is there any good data out there on the benefit of sequential vs. batch fire on mild engines? Like HP gain or MPG gain? Or is it just a "Feature" that is easy to sell....

Thats one of those "it depends" questions... IMO it would make no HP difference, you should see better mileage and possibly cleaner idle

 

[J Alper]

Is there any good data out there on the benefit of sequential vs. batch fire on mild engines? Like HP gain or MPG gain? Or is it just a "Feature" that is easy to sell....

So far everyone I see running a Holley or Factory over a Mefi, has improved on Fuel Mileage, For me the Holley harness just looks horrible, I hate the Split loom and Electrical tape, I prefer the standard loom with heat shrink.

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

So far everyone I see running a Holley or Factory over a Mefi, has improved on Fuel Mileage, For me the Holley harness just looks horrible, I hate the Split loom and Electrical tape, I prefer the standard loom with heat shrink.

I agree on the look of the harness although you maybe see a few inches of it on most cars I do -  If they were unreliable it would be easier to spend  $1000 making my own or having @Travelah make them for me, But I just wrap the Holley Harness in harness tape after I clean them up.

 

[Hauler]

I agree on the look of the harness although you maybe see a few inches of it on most cars I do -  If they were unreliable it would be easier to spend  $1000 making my own or having @Travelah make them for me, But I just wrap the Holley Harness in harness tape after I clean them up.

What kind of harness tape do you use?

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

What kind of harness tape do you use?

I use smooth Tesa TS4173.7 tape mostly. its good quality and lasts many years. I have been asked to use Cloth braided tape because its more flexible a couple times, in those cases I use the Tesa TS51036 1 because its abrasion proof. it looks good, but sand sticks to it, that is anegative IMO.

Both are commercial quality US made (but company is German) and really inexpensive as well as easy to use. 

the key to making a nice looking wrapped harness IMO is planning - you lay the harness out and you wrap the bends and intersections of the legs of the harness while on the car, then you will get  it lay down nicely when you reinstall it, then you can remove and bench wrap it so it looks perfect.

It will never be a Mil-spec harness in look or function, then again you car will never be an F-16 either 

 

[GeneralG]

Bringing this topic to the top.  I'm interested in removing the existing MeFi ECU/Harness to go with a Holley setup.  Engine is a LS 383 Stroker with a Whipple 3300.  Really wanting the nice digital dash gauges along with the "Free" software to tune instead of purchasing the $600+ MefiBurn or alike software....  I have looked at the AEM digital dash, but than still short on the tuning software.    Is the Terminator X enough for the engine combo I have?  Or should I look at the Dominator?  Wanting to keep if possible all of the existing sensors.

 

[Kraut_n_Rice]

The Fueltech I mentioned earlier has a ready to go LS harness.  Their ECU is the display (you'd want to do at least the FT550), and the tuning software is free.

 

[Travelah]

Bringing this topic to the top.  I'm interested in removing the existing MeFi ECU/Harness to go with a Holley setup.  Engine is a LS 383 Stroker with a Whipple 3300.  Really wanting the nice digital dash gauges along with the "Free" software to tune instead of purchasing the $600+ MefiBurn or alike software....  I have looked at the AEM digital dash, but than still short on the tuning software.    Is the Terminator X enough for the engine combo I have?  Or should I look at the Dominator?  Wanting to keep if possible all of the existing sensors.

Checkout the pinouts on their website. The terminator has everything to run a LS (including single wideband, fuel pressure sensor, can bus, pwm outputs, etc.) plus 4 spare inputs. The dominator has like 180 pins on the ecu. It has 12 injector outputs, 12 coil outputs, dual wideband inputs, and a ton of spare in/out. Unless you want dual wideband or are running 16 injectors a terminator x should be fine. 

Also, if you end up using a holley dash they have a bunch of inputs/outputs available.

 

[GeneralG]

Anyone have any luck or know how if using the Holley Dash for gear indication on their sequential S4 mendeola transmission?

 

[Travelah]

Anyone have any luck or know how if using the Holley Dash for gear indication on their sequential S4 mendeola transmission?

You should be able to use a 5v ref to power the sender and 5v input to read. Then you have to figure out what voltage each gear sends back. They can be set up on the dash multiple ways using a voltage divider, just search it on youtube.