I think the S4 is trying to tell me something

[Fullthrottleguy]

Here is how the Tremec/9" IRS diff situation would play out:

Bigger tires = need for closer ratio gears. How much will custom gear sets cost? How much power can they hold up to based on shaft center and width restrictions of housings they need to fit into? (Current VW and MD trans limitations)

More power = finding weak links in the factory housings and other components. How much will billet housings and HD components cost? (The reason why the HV-2's were developed to replace the VW and MD trans)

Big tires/Big power = finding breaking point of factory 9" gears. How much will aftermarket HD R&P's cost? (Current S4/S5 limitations) 

When does the factory 9" housings and R&P's become too weak to handle 1000+ HP and 38" tall tires? How much will a larger differential and R&P cost? (Reason for 11.5" R&P in S4D and AGB)

The fact is, every time the drivetrain industry has met the requirements to put X amount of power to the ground reliably, consumers invariably push the power envelope until that requirement has been exceeded. Then a new design must be drawn up and engineered to fix the shortcomings of the design before it. Then someone exceeds the power handling capability of that design. See the cycle here? 

As long as all you guys want to keep spending money on big power engines, we will have to come up with drivetrains that can meet that requirement. Those new designs and products will cost more money to produce on a much more limited scale since there is no longer a "mass produced" base design that we can start with and modify to meet those requirements. 

There are others out there that have tried or are trying new ways to get big power to the ground through various means of other "production based" components. They either cost more money than it's worth to develop on a small production scale and sell to this market, or the production based parts become the limiting factor.

All fair questions Sean,  and I am not advocating at this time in the sport anyone try to re-engineer whats out there, but 20 years ago it would have been a different game .

The aftermarket is well invested in driveline components that have a total available market of millions of cars unlike our sport. A through bolt  10"  and 9.5" (9" variants)  housings are unbelievably strong, easily serviceable, and are plentiful  - they hold Massive power  - 2500 to 3000HP and huge slicks are pretty commonplace for drag cars.  Nothing moves, nothing distorts, its all pretty bulletproof .. to me the main reason is the sheer  number of companies building  9" parts is huge - having lots of suppliers makes it easier.   

What you guys have done within the constraints you have is pretty amazing  - we complain a lot, but overall the stuff works way better than it should given it was based on a 40HP design ... so many years ago

 

[Richard h]

What you guys have done within the constraints you have is pretty amazing  - we complain a lot, but overall the stuff works way better than it should given it was based on a 40HP design ...

To be driven on the street, not raced in the sand!

 

[SeanRitchie]

The aftermarket is well invested in driveline components that have a total available market of millions of cars unlike our sport. A through bolt  10"  and 9.5" (9" variants)  housings are unbelievably strong, easily serviceable, and are plentiful  - they hold Massive power  - 2500 to 3000HP and huge slicks are pretty commonplace for drag cars.  Nothing moves, nothing distorts, its all pretty bulletproof 

Without trying to be "argumentative", Drag racing and off-road are apples and oranges in comparison.

Examples of "loose" power handling capabilities of an S4/S5 transaxle:

Offroad racing: 220 HP/TQ (Class 10, 5U, 12)

Recreational sand rail/desert buggy: 650 HP/TQ

Paved drag racing: 800 HP/TQ

The loads distributed through the drivetrain vary widely in each form of vehicle. There is no other form of racing/use that has the constant, repeated shock loading than off-road racing. Just ask all of the trophy truck guys how their 9", 9.5", and 10" R&P are holding up to 40" tires and 900 ft/lbs of big block torque. 

 

[Sand phene]

I recently purchased a Gen 3 funco after being out of the sand for 4 years. My excitement was through the roof. I began to prep the car this past weekend.  I noticed a leak out of the passenger side case cover on the 2D tranny. I pulled the cover off to reseal and fix the leak. Unfortunately I discovered the pinion gear is pitted. Looks like I won't be heading out anytime soon. 

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

Without trying to be "argumentative", Drag racing and off-road are apples and oranges in comparison.

Examples of "loose" power handling capabilities of an S4/S5 transaxle:

Offroad racing: 220 HP/TQ (Class 10, 5U, 12)

Recreational sand rail/desert buggy: 650 HP/TQ

Paved drag racing: 800 HP/TQ

The loads distributed through the drivetrain vary widely in each form of vehicle. There is no other form of racing/use that has the constant, repeated shock loading than off-road racing. Just ask all of the trophy truck guys how their 9", 9.5", and 10" R&P are holding up to 40" tires and 900 ft/lbs of big block torque. 

And not to argue at all - Let me take you on 7.60 pass one of these days when I come off the transbrake at 8,000 RPM and 15/32's hook and put us back on the wheelie bars for 120ft in a 3850Lb car, the shock load is tremendous ... it more like comparing tangerines and oranges

 

[Lord of the Dunes]

And not to argue at all - Let me take you on 7.60 pass one of these days when I come off the transbrake at 8,000 RPM and 15/32's hook and put us back on the wheelie bars for 120ft in a 3850Lb car, the shock load is tremendous ... it more like comparing tangerines and oranges

There's no doubt that is quite a shock load, but when a guy is going through 2' whoops at 100 mph, or jumping 50' and doesn't push in the clutch before he lands, those are also big shock loads, only happening a lot more often. I think the shock loading from going through the whoops is a lot worse, since it's not just on the driven side of the gear, it's also on the backside of the gear, you can hear it as the engine RPM oscillates from every time the rear suspension cycles.

 

[Lord of the Dunes]

Sean, would a torque converter help an S4 R&P live longer, or should we be looking at absorbing the shock load at the CV side of the trans? I know RG has incorporated a clutching mechanism in the Speed UTV differentials to help make them live longer. Is this something we might see in future transaxle designs? I'm assuming that was one of the design features that Albins (and Weddle?) helped him with...   what are your thoughts? 

 

[azyxzer]

I can't remember the name of the company who made them, but some people used to run "slipper" clutch packs on the outside of the transaxle near the CV's on some of the offroad race cars in the early 90's. It was like a motorcycle clutch without a release mechanism, just the springs that could only hold so much torque and would "give" to a big shock load. I never drove a car with them but I heard that you had to be careful with your throttle application to make them last, but also that they did help things last longer. I'm sure that in today's world there is no way they could stand the horsepower.

 

[MH785]

My Fortin was doing the same thing, noisy unless clutch in, shifted fine, started being pretty whiny at low speed. I ran it at Sand Mountain anyway and I bought an expensive box of parts lol

 

[L.R.S.]

Here's some from the past couple years.  I think of them as snowflakes, no two are the same...

























And the last one- no picture of the drain plug magnet but this is what I found in the diff fluid filter on an Albins...

 

[lincster]

Sean, would a torque converter help an S4 R&P live longer, or should we be looking at absorbing the shock load at the CV side of the trans? I know RG has incorporated a clutching mechanism in the Speed UTV differentials to help make them live longer. Is this something we might see in future transaxle designs? I'm assuming that was one of the design features that Albins (and Weddle?) helped him with...   what are your thoughts? 

Torque converter 100% would help.

Fortin offers a torque converter setup with their boxes.

Kevin McMullen used to run a wide gear and torque converter in his race cars. 

He said R&P's, gears, CVs etc all lasted so much longer with the converter.

Give him a call if you want more info, he will for sure give you all the pros/cons.

 

[r3meyer]

Still a believer in buying a much larger trans than engine you have.  The 5-6k you save upfront goes right out the window after a rebuild.  Would love to hear who has the longest running trans life and the power setup they have.

 

[SeanRitchie]

Sean, would a torque converter help an S4 R&P live longer, or should we be looking at absorbing the shock load at the CV side of the trans? I know RG has incorporated a clutching mechanism in the Speed UTV differentials to help make them live longer. Is this something we might see in future transaxle designs? I'm assuming that was one of the design features that Albins (and Weddle?) helped him with...   what are your thoughts? 

Yes. We run converters Class 1 cars specifically for this reason. There is also a Class 5 unlimited Baja bug with a Subaru that runs a converter with a big Albins trans. 

The Speed UTV trans and front diff both have wet clutch packs that will slip under heavy shock loads to dissipate the torque spikes and try to help get the drivelines to last a little longer. Albins has used the same type of mechanism on the 4WD trophy truck and Pro4 ST6 transmissions for about 5 years now with great success in helping the front diffs live longer.

It is difficult to incorporate this type of mechanism a sand car application since every car would need a different amount of preload applied to the clutch pack based on how much power and how it is driven. There would have to be a "test and tune" adjustment to get the exact amount of breakaway without overheating the clutch's, or running them too tight where they don't slip enough. Simply too many variables in every different type of car. We can adjust the preload on the Albins unit with air pressure, but this would be very difficult to apply with a clutch pack inside the gearbox. 

 

[lincster]

My buddy owned a car with a stock LS7 and H pattern Albins.

When he sold that car, it was 16 seasons old and the tranny had never been out.

Now, I could tell when I drove it that 3rd was gone, but......  still going!!!!!!!  LOL

We always duned together and the car was not babied at all.