Which intercooler should I use?

Kansas T

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I’m planning on adding a turbo to the LS1 in my buggy and I’m unsure which intercooler I should use.  This will be primarily a low boost (~7psi) pump gas setup, with enough fuel system to up the boost on E85 if needed.  To make things fit, an air to air intercooler would lay down over the intake with a scoop feeding it air.  How efficient is this style?  I see it on a lot of Subaru buggies.   Would an intercooler rated for more HP than I’m making work better or hinder performance?  If I used an air to water intercooler, it would have to be placed in the intake manifold (Holley high ram style).  How effective are these?  The cost for air to water is much higher, is it worth it?  Which setup handles heat soak better after a long dune run?

 
the water to air is way efficient but is more money and "lots more weight"  Subaru's are lighter cars and weight is everything.  if you didnt care about 75-100 more pounds then go for it.  that would be my guess for an intake cooler/water/pump/mini radiator etc

intercooling sizing has a few goals, pressure drop ideally would never exceed 1 psi at desired boost level( that includes your higher E85 boost), this is dynamic test (once everything is together on the dyno) and should be checked.  if air into the intercooler is 12 psi and air out of intercooler (intake pressure) is 8 psi then there its 4psi of pressure drop. no bueno.  i gave seen 8psi delta before for guys who buy anything off ebay and figuers it will work cause its long--lol.  that means the "charge face" is not big enough, basically the intercooler cant flow enough air.  the length of the intercooler only plays the part on how much you can cool the air.  its got to flow first.  if the intercooler has under.5 psi then the cooler charge face is over designed and you could have extra boost lag because its basically "wasted space"

 
Call JR at https://www.extremeturbosystems.com/. He has done tons of real world testing with different sizes and designs of intercoolers. He is the man to help you build what you need. Certainly a little more expensive than an eBay intercooler but worth it.

 
I don't see it anymore on the website but he used to post tons of real world testing and temperature drops from all the different intercoolers he built for the kits. When I bought my intercooler from him years ago he gave me quite an education over the phone. Lot of theory in the different designs and how inter coolers are made.https://www.focusrs.org/threads/looking-for-feedback-on-ets-vs-mishimoto-intercooler.94706/ Mine was custom built and designed. I assume he still does that.

 
the water to air is way efficient but is more money and "lots more weight"  Subaru's are lighter cars and weight is everything.  if you didnt care about 75-100 more pounds then go for it.  that would be my guess for an intake cooler/water/pump/mini radiator etc

intercooling sizing has a few goals, pressure drop ideally would never exceed 1 psi at desired boost level( that includes your higher E85 boost), this is dynamic test (once everything is together on the dyno) and should be checked.  if air into the intercooler is 12 psi and air out of intercooler (intake pressure) is 8 psi then there its 4psi of pressure drop. no bueno.  i gave seen 8psi delta before for guys who buy anything off ebay and figuers it will work cause its long--lol.  that means the "charge face" is not big enough, basically the intercooler cant flow enough air.  the length of the intercooler only plays the part on how much you can cool the air.  its got to flow first.  if the intercooler has under.5 psi then the cooler charge face is over designed and you could have extra boost lag because its basically "wasted space"
John's advice is right on  -

Sizing is as important as type - the higher the boost the more pressure loss becomes a problem

I prefer water to air as well, but it is far more expensive and requires a pump,  coolant and fans

CBM has a nice setup using the Whipple SC lower manifold.  The Tick performance  water to air  Intercooler in the Holley ram is my go to as it is VERY efficient I have seen huge temperature drops with near zero pressure loss

But that being said with mild boost e85 is a far better intercooler than any air to air or air to water intercooler 

Every intercooler is only as good as the turbo sizing.  If the turbo is sized wrong and makes too much heat the intercooler will not be effective and pressure drop will add to lag.

On air- to air intercoolers the general rule is that it is far better to have more parallel short tubes than a few long tubes  - in other words square is better than long rectangle.    This is opposite of a radiator where having more time to cool the water (dwell time) is more effective.  while that same thinking works for air in an intercooler, the problem is long tubes cause significant pressure drop and lag.

While many street cars have no choice but to do this (fitting intercooler in the front grille,  and many have far too small intercoolers... so its a compromise

The long tubes can lower boost by 5-10 lbs on a 15lb system in severe cases and I have seen this on Camaros - so you actually end up with more heat because you are spinning the turbo harder.  The long tubes due to the pressure drop "push" the output of the turbo and cause lots of backpressure.  This both hard on the turbo shaft (and bearing)  and more importantly will cause lag when getting on and off the throttle (especially before the boost level hits the blow off valve opening pressure. 

Using the wrong sized intercooler makes you get smarter as to how ypu size tubing and where you place the Blow off to "help"

Regarding the small Manifold mounted "turnkey" style dual turbo LS intercooler and scoop.  I have measured drop and pressure on those. 

Pressure drop is right around 1-2Lbs depending on boost (6-7lbs at the manifold) - not too bad  - but efficiency is pretty low over 7lbs or so.  At 7lbs I would say it the minimum size I would ever use. For e85 its fine.

For most 15-20LB LS engines running 110 or c16 a "radiator size" intercooler is pretty much ideal 20x26 BAR type

Under 20lbs you can get away with a radiator type Intercooler - Bar types are generally more efficient but really only needed for high boost so you don't "blow them apart"

I had the opportunity to work on a 6.0 L LS car  with an ebay twin turbo setup.  I did not have any expectations going in... since the car  came with two CHINA Gt35 turbos and 3" tubing and China Intercooler ,  China Waste gates (on 8Lb springs) and Blow offs.   this was the typical $1700 deal on ebay and its been running 4 seasons on the car with no issues until one of the waste gates got wasted....  and surprisingly the charge stays cool and the the car is running decent timing - the intercooler is barely larger than flat manifold type. The car hauls A$$ with little noticeable lag... I was very surprised 

 
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Excellent info.  That’s exactly what I was looking for.  What do you guys think of Treadstone intercoolers?  More specifically, I was looking at this unit:  https://www.treadstoneperformance.com/trv259-series-intercooler--1300hp/p90651

Its rated for a lot more power than I’ll be making, but it fits the space I have really well.  They also make a narrower core rates for a little less power. 

 
As far as your mounting location: a significant amount of intercooler cooling happens when you're not on boost from the air passing through it.  If you have a scoop to direct fresh air (not from your radiator) and a fan behind, should be fine.  Best is in front of the radiator though.

 
As far as your mounting location: a significant amount of intercooler cooling happens when you're not on boost from the air passing through it.  If you have a scoop to direct fresh air (not from your radiator) and a fan behind, should be fine.  Best is in front of the radiator though.
Yes. That^^^^
i have an air to air  very large scoop and twin paddle blade 12” fans on the back side pulling in pure fresh air and are air temp activated anything over 100 degrees. Basically they are on all the time but it’s nice to have them off when first starting the engine

 
My radiator is at the back of the car, so the intercooler will be ahead of it.

 
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