LS clutch problems Help!

[Glamisdude]

Hello GD,

I have a S4D on a twin turbo 440 LS motor the makes 1100 wheel. I am currently using the weddle/centerforce racing double 11 clutch. When I first switched to the Chevy bellhousing and this clutch a couple years ago I setup the pedal stop for the internal slave as directed by the instructions. But I noticed soon after that I would have to adjust my stop further and further to stop the trans from clanking into gear. I have now completely removed my adjustment bolt and it’s starting to get a little much as far as the initial into 1st gear shift. Also what is weird is it seems to be worse after driving. Cold In the morning will be a somewhat of a smooth shift. Hot after driving it’ll SLAM into first. Idk..

So I am floating the idea of pulling the engine in the next week and swapping in a new clutch, maybe a McLeod if I can get one and putting a dust shield on the bottom side of the flywheel. I am thinking maybe some sand is getting in there.. idk I’m at a loss

I have also already changed my master cylinder. No change

Any help is appreciated

-Landon

 

[J Alper]

I have had this issue with two of the Weddle Centerforce Clutch, Dominics had a Kennedy stage4 9'' no issues,
I have done 4 kennedy with that power with no issue, all where stage4

Then you can send it the clutches to be repucked, takes about 3 weeks, they do not carry the full size starter wheel with the 9'' center on the shelf,

 

[Glamisdude]

I have had this issue with two of the Weddle Centerforce Clutch, Dominics had a Kennedy stage4 9'' no issues,
I have done 4 kennedy with that power with no issue, all where stage4

Then you can send it the clutches to be repucked, takes about 3 weeks, they do not carry the full size starter wheel with the 9'' center on the shelf,

Thanks for the reply Jason,

Did you ever figure out what the cause was on the centerforce? It’s hard to believe that it’s common it’s a nice unit.

So kennedy makes the flywheel they just don’t keep one on the shelf?

 

[SeanRitchie]

A few questions:

1. Did you check the release point on the clutch pedal when you were adjusting the pedal stop?

2. With the engine running and clutch pedal depressed while in gear, did the car want to roll?

Something to keep in mind with the larger 10.4" and 11" clutch is they have a lot more inertia than a smaller Kennedy or Tilton clutch, so when you push the clutch pedal down to shift from neutral into 1st gear, the input shaft is often still turning all of the gears in the gearbox, hence the hard shift into 1st gear. The discs won't ever fully disconnect from the flywheel and pressure plate, there is almost always a little drag in there. Crashing into first gear will also be worse when the trans is warmed up as the oil is thinner and less resistance in the bearing fitments.

You should never have to adjust the pedal stop once it has been set. The internal hydraulic slave cylinders are self adjusting, the only spring action that pushes the throw out bearing away from the clutch fingers are the fingers themselves. Resetting the clutch pedal travel only allows the throw out bearing to travel further into the clutch fingers, possibly causing a similar issue that you are experiencing.

Another note about the Weddle S45D-615CH Chevy bell housings with internal slave cylinders is that a few of the first batch of input shafts had oversized splines that did not allow the clutch disc to float when you pushed the pedal, making it feel like the clutch was sticking and the car would roll while in gear and clutch pedal down. Weddle discovered this after a few weeks of customers receiving new parts, and checked all of the input shafts on the shelf, but a few already got out into the wild. It is worth the time to check the disc fitment on input shaft to make sure it slides on and off easily. (This is good practice no matter the clutch manufacture) The input shafts can be sanded to decrease the outer diameter of the splines, and allow the discs to float a little easier.

It is not uncommon to have a hard shift into 1st gear from neutral on any brand of sequential gearbox. This is the nature of dog-engagement gears. There are things that can be done to try and relieve the issue as best possible, but it may never completely go away. Although it sounds terrible, it doesn't actually hurt anything as long as you are not grinding the gears. You should hear the audible thud and a bit of clanging for a second or two as the dogs bounce back and forth between themselves. Totally fine, nothing to worry about.

 

[Glamisdude]

A few questions:

1. Did you check the release point on the clutch pedal when you were adjusting the pedal stop?

2. With the engine running and clutch pedal depressed while in gear, did the car want to roll?

Something to keep in mind with the larger 10.4" and 11" clutch is they have a lot more inertia than a smaller Kennedy or Tilton clutch, so when you push the clutch pedal down to shift from neutral into 1st gear, the input shaft is often still turning all of the gears in the gearbox, hence the hard shift into 1st gear. The discs won't ever fully disconnect from the flywheel and pressure plate, there is almost always a little drag in there. Crashing into first gear will also be worse when the trans is warmed up as the oil is thinner and less resistance in the bearing fitments.

You should never have to adjust the pedal stop once it has been set. The internal hydraulic slave cylinders are self adjusting, the only spring action that pushes the throw out bearing away from the clutch fingers are the fingers themselves. Resetting the clutch pedal travel only allows the throw out bearing to travel further into the clutch fingers, possibly causing a similar issue that you are experiencing.

Another note about the Weddle S45D-615CH Chevy bell housings with internal slave cylinders is that a few of the first batch of input shafts had oversized splines that did not allow the clutch disc to float when you pushed the pedal, making it feel like the clutch was sticking and the car would roll while in gear and clutch pedal down. Weddle discovered this after a few weeks of customers receiving new parts, and checked all of the input shafts on the shelf, but a few already got out into the wild. It is worth the time to check the disc fitment on input shaft to make sure it slides on and off easily. (This is good practice no matter the clutch manufacture) The input shafts can be sanded to decrease the outer diameter of the splines, and allow the discs to float a little easier.

It is not uncommon to have a hard shift into 1st gear from neutral on any brand of sequential gearbox. This is the nature of dog-engagement gears. There are things that can be done to try and relieve the issue as best possible, but it may never completely go away. Although it sounds terrible, it doesn't actually hurt anything as long as you are not grinding the gears. You should hear the audible thud and a bit of clanging for a second or two as the dogs bounce back and forth between themselves. Totally fine, nothing to worry about.

Thanks for the reply Sean,

Everything you said makes complete sense

I did check the release point as instructed in the manual. It just seemed that it would get worse so I would move the stopper a little and it would alleviate the issue but only for a short term. It is also difficult to get into reverse, the gears just clatter. I shift it into 1st then shift to neutral real quick and pull back on reverse.

My input shaft is an early one I got the first batch of the new bell housings when they came out a couple years ago so I know the input shaft was about the same time. I will also note that it is difficult to get the splines to slide together when Ive put the engine back to the trans. So maybe there is something there as to the spline size.

On a side note: Have you ever noticed sand being an issue? I have a moroso oil pan so the whole bottom half of the flywheel is exposed. Im going to get a dust shield for when I re install. Just because it seems right to me.

I’m pulling the engine this week to inspect everything. I’ll report back with my findings

Thanks again!

 

[Grease Monkey]

I noticed the same issue with reverse on my new clutch set up. I found the same issue with the gears grinding. I held my clutch in for a bit then tried it. It went right in.

 

[SeanRitchie]

Reverse is somewhat the same issue as first, but kind of worse in a way since you are literally grinding the gear teeth to engage reverse, where all of the other gears are dog engagement. There is no easy (cheap) solution to fix that. It sound a lot worse than the damage it causes, but it does grind the corners of the reverse teeth down a little. We can usually just polish off the burrs and run the same gears a few times until they get too bad to re-install. Holding the clutch down and shifting into 1st than back into neutral is the best solution, but will still grind a little.

 

[lincster]

I put mine in 1st, then Neutral, let the clutch out, push clutch in and then go into Reverse.
No grinding.
Only really happens if we just get done from a run.
Start up in the garage and it drops right into reverse.

 

[SeanRitchie]

I put mine in 1st, then Neutral, let the clutch out, push clutch in and then go into Reverse.
No grinding.
Only really happens if we just get done from a run.
Start up in the garage and it drops right into reverse.

The idea with holding the clutch in after shifting into first then back into neutral is that the input shaft (and reverse gears) stop spinning once you shift into first, making it a little easier to get the reverse gear teeth mesh.

Once you let the clutch pedal out, the input shaft (and reverse gears) spin again turning the reverse gear teeth, which is what causes the grinding when shifting into reverse.

Not saying that what you are doing doesn't work, just explaining the reasoning in the procedure.

 

[Glamisdude]

*Status update*

Got the clutch apart and everything looks great! The splines on the clutch disk slide freely with the input shaft. All good

The only thing I noticed is the amount of sand/clutch material that is jammed in between the casing of the pressure plate and the back of the plate it self. I cleaned everything out with air the best I could will see what happens.

I’m thinking maybe the crud that was lodged in between could possibly prevent the pressure plate from fully pulling away from the clutch disks? Will see how it works when I get it running again.

-Landon

 

[J Alper]

It looks like that the pressure plate is not holding the disc force, it looks like uneven pressure on the discs

 

[SeanRitchie]

Call Ron at Weddle at e-mail him those pictures. This could be part of a batch of clutch's that would stick a little. He can explain the issue and get you sorted out.

 

[Glamisdude]

Copy that! I’ll call Ron tomorrow, thanks for your help Sean.

I’ll report back his findings and solutions for me

 

[Glamisdude]

So I found the problem with the centerforce clutch and just finished installing the fix. Need to get my throw out bearing closer. Going to change the slave cylinder piston for one that is a little longer. Might have to lathe it down a little bit but otherwise am in good shape.

-Landon