Engine Porn... One I just finished

[Fullthrottleguy]

its not Boobs but maybe the next best thing

This is a "Billy Bad Boy" build I just finished for Kevin "Coin Pocket" in my crew   Should make some serious HP on the Dyno this week, but its really made to Dune and be driveable and very relaible 

A few Specs for those who Care:

454 LSR Tall Deck All USA parts Callies ULTRA  rotating Assy, Racetec Pistons  - custom  for this appication, I been working with CPR ( my machine shop) on some custom heads based on their castings-  this engine has those  - they flow less than the  All Pros - the gold standard (these are Ls3 port  All Pro are LS7)  and slightly edge out the M311 Frankensteins in all areas,  we softened the chambers on the heads  and are running Manley Valves and Pac springs and Titanium retainers.  Kenne Bell 4.9 Supercharger with a 168mm Throttle Body,  and Custom drive I built.  Dailey Dry Sump,  (3 gallon oil change $$)  CAMs are always the key, I worked with a respected builder in the midwest I talk to often that builds 1400-1500HP engine similar to this and he supplied the cam proven in similar applications, but owner wants to keep specs secret.   Upgraded the Fuel system -Holley Hydramat in the tank, 5GPM brushless speed controlled Aeromotive in tank pump and Pro Regulator ,  -12 and -10  XRP Pro Flow hose throughout  and Bosch motorsports injectors.  Everything is top shelf on this build and lots of time in the blueprinting and assy.  Motec M130  Engine Management ( would have preferred Holley ... but Owner had the Motec, the PDM and Dash)

Set up to run e85 and 91, Looking at 18-20 psi on e85.  In a 2 seat SCU  set up for big power, and backed by an Albins 5 speed Sequential.  Should be a Fun ride...









Not saying I slept in the shop to get this finished on time ... but

 

[Jtmoney714]

Sheesh!!!!!

 

[Chingon619]

Good lawd! and here I am wondering if my stock LS1 will make it another season 12 qts of oil though, sheeeeeeessh!!!! 

 

[Rockwood]

Good lawd! and here I am wondering if my stock LS1 will make it another season 12 qts of oil though, sheeeeeeessh!!!! 

Dat dry sump life

That being said, the Coyote in my Mustang is 10qts…

 

[MGMFRP]

How did you get a crank?  Got a buddy waiting on 4 of them.  

Not a bad way to spend $50k to $70k!!!

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

How did you get a crank?  Got a buddy waiting on 4 of them.  

Not a bad way to spend $50k to $70k!!!

 We ordered a couple blocks so I got them in a week.  Machine shop and I ordered a total of 6 cranks CPR is great he stocks Dart Blocks and cranks and lots of high end parts, just on this build, we wanted 1 step up  - It took 3 months to get the crank  -  2 months for the Pistons - was on Racetec daily.   Good parts are still hard to get. Manton made the pushrods overnight though.. and Kenne Bell is awesome got me the SC in a week. Biggest issue was the special  6 bolt  1/2" head bolts  for the LSR - all the bolts are bigger diameter than the RHS and we had to drill out the heads to match as well   - kits were 4 months out from ARP.  ARP had zero stock at any dealer anywhere in the US or Europe. It costs more than retail, but we had them "build the kit" from other kits  - for instance the main head bolts are same as a Viper V10.. so ended up with a couple spares. Cometic made the headgaskets with bigger boilt holes in 3 days so we bought a spare set.  8620 core cam was also 2 months.  I am sure the "basic build" stuff is easier to get now, in fact most of the cranks and rods out of Taiwan are off the shelf .  But anything 100% USA  forging pretty  you will wait...

And yeah  - it was not a cheap build    

 

[Rockwood]

 We ordered a couple blocks so I got them in a week.  Machine shop and I ordered a total of 6 cranks CPR is great he stocks Dart Blocks and cranks and lots of high end parts, just on this build, we wanted 1 step up  - It took 3 months to get the crank  -  2 months for the Pistons - was on Racetec daily.   Good parts are still hard to get. Manton made the pushrods overnight though.. and Kenne Bell is awesome got me the SC in a week. Biggest issue was the special  6 bolt  1/2" head bolts  for the LSR - all the bolts are bigger diameter than the RHS and we had to drill out the heads to match as well   - kits were 4 months out from ARP.  ARP had zero stock at any dealer anywhere in the US or Europe. It costs more than retail, but we had them "build the kit" from other kits  - for instance the main head bolts are same as a Viper V10.. so ended up with a couple spares. Cometic made the headgaskets with bigger boilt holes in 3 days so we bought a spare set.  8620 core cam was also 2 months.  I am sure the "basic build" stuff is easier to get now, in fact most of the cranks and rods out of Taiwan are off the shelf .  But anything 100% USA  forging pretty  you will wait...

And yeah  - it was not a cheap build    

Think it’ll be 1100 ish to the tire?

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

Think it’ll be 1100 ish to the tire?

Yeah should be 1100-1150 on the Hub dyno - they are a bit  tighter IMO  But you have to run a Hub Dyno with these even in 4th gear its over 120MPH and most AT tires are rated for 99 or 112MPH - gets kinda scary especially when the tires start smoking when the RPM comes up

Last one I did like this  was a 441 with same cam with ported PRC heads and a Kenne Bell 4.7 , it  made 1337 at the crank on e85  the RWHP was just under 1100, I hope this one with 2lbs more boost due to the chambers and bigger., cooler blower does a bit better - Both Blowers have the KB liquid cooled gear rotors  so tend to be more consistent run to run  and this car has a HUGE heat exchanger 

Might see 100-150HP more with a TT setup, which he might go to eventually, but nothing dunes a like an SC 

 

[Rockwood]

Yeah should be 1100-1150 on the Hub dyno - they are a bit  tighter IMO  But you have to run a Hub Dyno with these even in 4th gear its over 120MPH and most AT tires are rated for 99 or 112MPH - gets kinda scary especially when the tires start smoking when the RPM comes up

Last one I did like this  was a 441 with same cam with ported PRC heads and a Kenne Bell 4.7 , it  made 1337 at the crank on e85  the RWHP was just under 1100, I hope this one with 2lbs more boost due to the chambers and bigger., cooler blower does a bit better - Both Blowers have the KB liquid cooled gear rotors  so tend to be more consistent run to run  and this car has a HUGE heat exchanger 

Might see 100-150HP more with a TT setup, which he might go to eventually, but nothing dunes a like an SC 

Especially positive displacement. 

 

[BONES]

Alex this is good stuff. How long did it take from start to finish to get this together? 

 

[1newbie]

This is all above my pay grade; but is the KB 4.9 much better than the Whipple 4.5?

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

Alex this is good stuff. How long did it take from start to finish to get this together? 

well ...  since you asked - this one was "fun"  After I assembled the parts list (cut and paste from others I did)  Getting parts was about 3 months total, but you cannot do the machine work correctly without the parts  especially the pistons as even though the manufacturers tolerances are  1/2  thousand +/-  thats 1 thousand  if you have one piston on the small side and one on the large size, so  the Piston to wall  we wanted exactly 4 thousands so each piston and bore is matched  to achieve that so with scheduling that added 2 weeks with  machine work,  - and I am very demanding I  make the machinist go over all the   bearing measurements with his $10,000 sunnen boire gage  before anything leaves the shop, then when I get it back  crap load of fine deburring, and extensive cleaning   ...  then I measure everything again myself   then because it has to be perfect even though we decked the brand new block to be straight and all the parts on the computer measured up to a deck height putting th piston 6 thousands out of the bore ( good reasons for this)... when I mocked and measured  we were 2 in the hole - so it had come apart and get redecked  (another 72 hour wait)  and  since its boosted  we wanted the smoothed  surface for the Cometic gaskets to seal  - so we the Profilometer numbers down to 3  - thats smooth  -  a number you can  just about feel drag with a fingernail is like 80, it was like a 1/10 a thousand at a time off to stop dragging the hard cylinder metal across the soft alum -  the process took 8 hours on the CNC to deck the block  -  so then it clean  block again and reassemble and measure  - all pretty smooth from there 2 days to assemble, prime the dry sump and check for leaks  3.5 months later  ...  when I did my  427 recently  - start to finish was 3 weeks all the parts  lead times were days my machine shop had crank and rods in stock  - so usual time is 3-4 weeks  because machine woirk should  alway wait til you have the parts  - But I have all the blocks new or old  Bored, honed, line bored, decked and deburred as a minimum when you pushing more than 750HP on an alum block its  gonna make it live a long healthy and powerful life

 

[Fullthrottleguy]

This is all above my pay grade; but is the KB 4.9 much better than the Whipple 4.5?

thats like a ford vs Chevy argument  - both are good 

Sorry in advance this might get to be a long read ....

Whipple has a larger selection of manifold (intake port) types and a really nice front drive tensioner  set up, and the look is clean, and they are nice people in NorCal and make their own rotor packs  - super nice CNC work

So way more versatility on belt lines and choice of heads  *cathedral, LS3, LS7),  for  their dealer network like the big builders that sell them with mark up  its an easy line to carry  and so good support is there

 The biggest advantage IMO is the larger Heat exchanger in the manifold  for the LS  it  can keep the charge cool  when  we are duning all day at 90 degrees - now running e85  somewhat eliminates the need due to the natural cooling effect of the fuel  - but  you definitely have to cut the boost and timing to be safe - keeping charge cooler is always more HP - 

There is so much history between whipple and kenne Bell  - is Hatfields and McCoys stuff ... and Kenne Bell is know as the ford guys because of it , but its not accurate

I am all about making the most overall power where you use it, mostly 2500-5500 RPM while duning - if you run just the drags - go TT  its way better ...  that said,  Kenne Bell is MUCH  more efficient  at making more power "under the curve" over 5500 everything Screw SC makes power    - roots blowers  like the LSA or Magnuson blowers run out of steam over 4500 RPM and coast up on power to redline but IATs  get scry hot really fast  and you have to curve the timing  - its just a compromise  thats noit worth it except on stock engines or really mild forged stuff.  we call the  the "near Beer" of superchargers .... but because they are smaller and easier to turn  (less pumping loss)  they make good low end power and work on stock engines really well at stock high compression and limited boost (not gonna break the crank)  - sorry for the side track...

With both the Whipple and Kenne Bell you are limited to the power made by 3 main factors:

 IATs  - Intake heat  - this why a bigger slower blower is better)

Airflow  - related to IATS if there are turns or restriction the intake charge heats or if you have say a front drive blower where the drive shaft is in the intake path  - its like putting  a heated  rod in the middle of the air intake - it absorbs the heat - those shafts get Really hot) and you just need more air to make more power  - generally at 1 bar  14.7lbs boost you "should" double the cubic inches of your engine so intheory if your engine made 500HP NA  it should make 1000HP Boosted at 14.7 but its not quite that easy

Pumping efficiency or pumping loss -  this is basically fluid dynamics crap I don't completely understand - but the easy explanation is  a well designed rotor pack will take less power to turn and result and more more at the crank and way faster throttle response and generally a cooler intake charge 

........

II don't sell Kenne Bell so you can "cut a deal with them" directly  - they are  generally cheaper  for tuner kits on the big blowers ( I won't use Jack shafts and front inlet stuff for the sand personally, seen to many issues) tp I choose the best SC I can for the power even if its a little more work.

I do go to their facility in Rancho in SoCal - decent folks  and now owned by accufab (great throttle bodies)

Kenne Bell has a few patents, but the most important  is on the rotor design  is 4x6 vs whipple 3x5  and technically that  means the case has to be stronger so the Kenne Bell is billet and Whipple is cast  and the Kenne Bell gear set gets hotter (more whine)

but  as an example the Kenne Bell 4,9  takes 88HP at 5500 to turn the blower  and the Whipple is closer to 220HP  (according the independent tests)   so that means  more Free HP at the crank and faster revs and less strain on the crank snout  ( try outting a SCAT 4.250 crank  on whipple 4,0 or 4.5 and it will be broken off pretty quick)

Kenne Bell deals with higher gear temps by cooling the gears with the heater exchanger  lines (liquid cooled)

They also have cool tech to eliminate more parastalic loss (HP loss) not just from the rotor shape but also they balance the  pressure on both sides of the seals and  learned from the Pro Mod blower guys that teflon coated rotors run cooler

 But the price you pay is that you are stuck with LS3  Head Port and  "Z"  new Camaro belt line and of course a "lower profile"  Manifold  and heat exchanger

Those things I am fixing   ... we just finished designing a new manifold and Huge Heat exchanger  that is less restrictive than any on the market and prelim tests ( on printed parts)  show 100-150 more HP  with e85 (this  engine is being retrofitted with that as soon as first billet ones are done) .  we'll have LS1. LS3, and LS7 port types  and you can see the new belt drive we built on this engine  -  they are being CNc'd now too with some other cool features like integrated and cooled fuel rails  - all for power and looks

Since we don't care about height like grocery getter street cars do  - its ideal for same cars and wild street cars 

I think  with all the mods the KB  will be the  same price the Whipple costs and this will fit the 3.6, the 4.2 and 4.9 KBs - so a great range of displacements 

At that point we are approaching all the HP you can make on e85  which most people agree is about 1600 at the crank  - the big turbo guys with little to no HP loss are approaching this  - beyond that you have to go to M1  and that is a host of other problems...

If  the tests  on the billet pieces show the numbers I hope ...GD will get a new Vendor soon

 

[Bobalos]

WOW, super interesting.  thanks for sharing what you are up to. 

Looks like John is trying to take over the world........ first LenCo & now Kenny Bell.... 

 

[1newbie]

Thank you @Fullthrottleguy for taking the time to type that out!!  I was under the impression that Whipple was the only game in town in big HP LS motors.