Calculating Fuel Injector Need

ChasingSand

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I like Alpers post last night about starting more threads that are on the technical aspect of our sport.

I know you can go online and punch in your ideal number on a fuel Injection Calculator, but how accurate are they?

Also, Duty Cycle, what is the goal? I read somewhere in the 80% Range but again I do not know much about this.

Hoping @J Alper and @Fullthrottleguy Can chime in to educate us folks.

My setup is going to be a J35A4 Running a TO4B Turbo with a goal of around 375 HP to the wheel at 7-8LBS of Boost. I plan to run race gas or even a 50/50 Racegas and 91 Mix.

 
things like turbo and wheel hp dont compute into the equation.  the most bearing is the engine HP, boost, fuel pressure, how many cylinders and RPM with HP being the main component.  there are other factors as in how effiecient the motor is and desired AFR.  duty cycle is how long the injector stays open until the next pulse occurs.  90% means on for 90%. then closed for 10%.  clearly 110% duty cycle doesnt work as the injector can not be open more than 100%  and its hard on the ecu drivers and the injectors to be held on at 100%,so max of 90% can be used in our sport for the typical duner as you would only be there for a brief moment.  in all out drag racing where full throttle could be maintained for a time--90% is just too close to 100,  80% would be a much safer margin to be working with.  the end result is seen on the dyno where most ecus can show what duty cycle is being used.  some ecus even can have a warning set at what ever you want so in typical tuning of any car if you were calling for more fuel and it exceeded your target (say 90%) then something needs to change.  dyno stops and either larger injectors are installed, less hp (like lowering boost) or raising fuel pressure would be needed. start motor and start retuning

 
Also, many issues with injectors with no info with them, this can make the tune just not correct no matter who is tuning it, Injector Data is Key, for example holley has injector data already in the system for a lot of injectors and it is just wrong,  We now will only purchase injectors with data,  like they say cry once,  i dont know much about injectors but i have had good luck with the Ford Motorsports and FIC,  I understand the Injector Dynamics is some of the best, just have not used them,  

 
Injector sizing is a bit of an art and a lot of science ...

This is gonna be long so here is the BLUF (bottom line up front - US military speak)

1. the online calculator work really - they match the long form math as long as you use the right one and put in the right info, the best one is by far https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/Technical      Russ Collins has the math right behind the formulas

2. The brand of injector and type of injector matter - not just to the ECM  and the injector drivers, but to the VE of the engine

3. Running injectors above 80% duty cycle works, BUT the dead time numbers the ECM software uses to calculate the Lbs/hr to build the fuel table will be off the fuel tables will be inaccurate and if the ECM runs in closed loop the compensation values will be off and in extreme circumstances where you run over 90% for a long time the injectors may shut off (hysteresis issue) the same as driving your car amp into shutdown.

4. Trust the vendor that built or tunes your car and  recommends an Injector brand and NEVER buy off ebay or anyone you don't trust - they will be knock offs -  I flow EVERY set of injectors before I use them - some are perfect - alot are fake and suck 

NOW the Details ....

So Let me start with the stuff the "sizing charts" don't

Beyond the basic can your ECM handle low or high impedance   - which will Always determine how well the ECM can "control" the injections when the Pulse width  changes (idle characteristics on big injectors).  The Injector design is also critical  1 hole, 4 holes, 8 holes, all determine how well the spray pattern works when you Boost reference the imnjector. 

Most injectors are rated for 43.5Lbs pressure at the cap, but add 10Lbs for boost and now the injector is at 53.5Lbs - MOST good injectors even High impedance will have a good pattern there, in-fact good up to 60Lbs ,,,  But if you start with 60LBs and go to 70 or 80, now the spray pattern-starts to fall off, especially as the injectors hit their duty cycle limit ...

A bit of science here  --The other issue is that injectors depending on their size will have better or worse control over the pulse width (that makes the duty cycle - how many times it pulses in sec determines how long it stays open and  and for how long)  ALL injectors experience something called Hysteris - that is resistance to change of states of the winding in the coil of the injector.  when the injector opens the coil is energized and when the voltage is pulled, the coil energy collapses (like an electro magnet)   if the field collapses too slow the Injector cannot have a fast pulse width .   and the Bigger the injector the slower the filed collapses  - thats why injectors have DEAD time - this is the chart  you fill in to the SW when you buy an injector and it is really important - you will never have to worry if you size your injectors where they Never go over 80% BUT  are not under 70% at WOT 

Here is where it also gets tricky.   With Gas  be it Race or pump, the injector can be sized to meet the engine's VE  - the volumetric efficiency.  There is a formula I have posted previously to get there - the calculators  you use online  use that equation in the macro  when they ask you things such as what is the BSFC or brake specific fuel consumption - thats the basic efficiency   How many Lbs of fuel are you using per HP per hour.    Its a pretty smart calculation that takes in whether you are Turbo or SC or NA.  So in this way those online calculations are near spot on.   I know because I have done the long hand math and used the calculator and guess what they are close enough where you will never tell.  You have to be very careful not to but too big of injectors especially if they are High impedance .   the collapse time on the coil (we call it the falling edge) is never as well controlled by the injector drivers with high impedance injectors and its why for many years Performance injectors were only Low Impedence.   So if you have to go high impedance be more careful in selection.  Low impedance injectors  where you have more range will idle better and have a better spray pattern across an wider Voltage/ Current range meaning if you are running say 40Lbs of boost on an LS and need  2500 CC (260Lbs) injector  - you should go low impedance or the car will idle like crap.

Injector selector is one of the most important choices you can make for horsepower and drivability .  I have added 100HP in the midrange and and made a car purr at idle . from being  beast with a horrible idle and only top end power just by swappiung injectors and touching up the tune (it was an LS)

I could write a book - but I think that covers the basics...

 
Also, many issues with injectors with no info with them, this can make the tune just not correct no matter who is tuning it, Injector Data is Key, for example holley has injector data already in the system for a lot of injectors and it is just wrong,  We now will only purchase injectors with data,  like they say cry once,  i dont know much about injectors but i have had good luck with the Ford Motorsports and FIC,  I understand the Injector Dynamics is some of the best, just have not used them,  
Jason

I have tuned Dozens of Holley cars as you know  - the dead time charts on EVERY one I have done is fine on both the TERM X and HP/Dom SW  - then again I only use Holley Injectors (Bosch)  Bosch Injectors  - not the Diesel ones people sell as gas injectors, FIC, ID and "some Seimens"  If you had problems you are probably using Chinese Knock off injectors -  they are hard to tell from real ones unless you weigh them and flow them and check the impedance  - the coil windings are all over the place a 12 ohm coil should measure  on the right meter (that can handle impedance loads - impedance is "active" resistance) 12 - 12.3 Ohm   I have seen the Fake crap at 11 and 14 Ohm 

A lot of people buy BOSCH diesel injectors especially the 260LB injectors cause they are cheap - I put them on my flow tester and they are far from good - its like buying Snake eaters (their not the Bosch they resell)   and other "Un capped" injectors, One is good, one shuts off, and one hydrolocks your engine. You have to flow them all. 

Out of the box real Bosch injectors Have awesome QC  - the Holley branded Bosch are within 1%  out of the box the others are 2-3%  perfectly acceptable . Buy good injectors and you don't need to flow match them - I can never charge someone to flow match new  Bosch because I know they will be good (Not diesel injectors or flex fuel only).

Siemens are OK  - but I have a set I just flowed Brand new from Siemens direct - one is 20% lower than others  - car would run like crap and that cylinder would go lean  - so in that case I always buy pre- flowed siemens although I don't use them any more 

 
Thank you both for your reply’s! I will be using an AEM series 2 for the ECU and RC fuel Injectors. Was planning on using the 550CC sized units. 
 

https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/Store/c/performance-injectors/p/sl4-0550h-honda-style-top-saturated-injector
i now really like the Injector dynamic injectors and thats almost the only injector i sell, they are like$140 each-- but thats for the super common 1050cc.  you might consider it.  they are really popular with e85 and have far superior internals.   i dont think i have anything smaller (they may cost less)  not sure of all new ecus but our new LINK ecus can only drive high impedance injectors.  do you have you ecu already?  if not im a dealer

 
Thank you both for your reply’s! I will be using an AEM series 2 for the ECU and RC fuel Injectors. Was planning on using the 550CC sized units. 
 

https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/Store/c/performance-injectors/p/sl4-0550h-honda-style-top-saturated-injector
As you can guess I like RC

RC injectors are excellent but expensive - they use Bosch and simply change the basket (filter)  and flow check each one. (they are  1 mile from my shop so I have used them alot)  Not sure if they are still doing this but they used to test each one for over one hour at 90% duty cycle and run up to 100Lbs.  Thats some QC. RC MADE all their test equipment - better than anything I have  or anybody has. 

Let them confirm your sizing  but 550 pretty much ideal

 The series 2 I believe  can run saturated or peak and hold injectors  and does not an external box to run high or low impedence injectors - but check with RC and AEM 

 
As you can guess I like RC

RC injectors are excellent but expensive - they use Bosch and simply change the basket (filter)  and flow check each one. (they are  1 mile from my shop so I have used them alot)  Not sure if they are still doing this but they used to test each one for over one hour at 90% duty cycle and run up to 100Lbs.  Thats some QC. RC MADE all their test equipment - better than anything I have  or anybody has. 

Let them confirm your sizing  but 550 pretty much ideal

 The series 2 I believe  can run saturated or peak and hold injectors  and does not an external box to run high or low impedence injectors - but check with RC and AEM 
Thank you and John for all great info!

 
I pretty much stick to the FIC and the Ford Motorsports from my Local Dealer,  any Naturally aspirated the Fords work good, but the price seems to go up every month, So far the FIC have flowed well and a great looking spray pattern, 

 
https://www.youtube.com/user/TunedbyShaneT/videos

Shane Techlenburg has some pretty interesting videos.  he has a shop that he does all kinds of experiments in & it seems that mostly he does it to learn what is going on.  He does a bunch of stuff with injectors and coils.  cool stuff if you ask me. 

 
Please Watch this, this was on target from what we seen 



 
11 minutes ago, J Alper said:

Not sure if this Helps you,  

but, Have used these on our Naturally aspirated motors for years now attached will be the data, 

FORD PERFORMANCE 47 LB/HR FUEL INJECTOR SET| Part Details for M-9593-G302 | Ford Performance Parts

High Performance Fuel Injectors (fuelinjectorclinic.com)

Its hard for me to see you knock the Holley dat since I live with it daily and if follow the rules its pretty darn good.

Video is nice though - good basics  - He kinda does not understand the Physics of the off-time or dead time but it does not matter - not everyone has an engineering degree.

When he is playing with tables he is forgetting that the Base Fuel tables of the V1 software are all based on 60PSI  - as soon as you change from 60  - the fuel tables calculation are all wrong.  In the V2 you can select 43.5 or 60Lbs  So changing those setting to say 50Lbs  means the math behind the tables especially on VE  goes out of whack, you have to hand build all the tables for best results  ( days of work)

Its good to know that stuff - so stay 60 or use 43.5 on V2 and save some headaches

Bottomline if you use 60Lbs the Dead times are adjusted automatically using the Holley data 

I used those exact injectors in a car that runs fantastic for 2 seasons using Holley data - 

I trust Holley's math over some Internet guys math  - Holley does a lot of testing and Its proven out for me and 1000's of others -  You are likely to get the formulas and math wrong trying to do it yourself - don't look for trouble that is not there. 

Yes I have used injectors not on the Holley list and have to do the math  - but honestly on Sand cars and LS engines Holley has all the data  - companies like ID and FIC supply tested Holley data

Holley sells more EFI now that anyone - just about every injector manufacturer you want to use has Holley plug in info now 

 
I haven’t figured out efi as of yet but we are close to starting our car on efi for first time in the next couple of weeks. We went with atomizer injectors, can’t remember the size off hand. Hopefully it’s a lot cleaner than the mechanical injection. 

 
Thank you both for your reply’s! I will be using an AEM series 2 for the ECU and RC fuel Injectors. Was planning on using the 550CC sized units. 
 

https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/Store/c/performance-injectors/p/sl4-0550h-honda-style-top-saturated-injector
I have the same engine, using RC750 injectors. I am at 10lbs but running E85. When speaking with RC they said to add 30% for E85. Using that math, you should be close on 50/50 or race with 550cc. I would look at the 650cc for future growth, or if you plan to bump up the HP at all.    

 
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